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The Dome of the Rock was built on the same platform that the Temple of Solomon once stood (destroyed by the Romans, 70 A.D.). For Muslims, this became a holy site after it was already holy within Judaism (and Christianity?). Do you think that the Muslims should have built their site here?
No, but to the victors go the spoils. Should we have put Mt. Rushmore on the sacred Black Hills of the Sioux? Absolutely not, but to the victors go the spoils.
Isn't the Dome where Mohammed supposedly rose to heaven? It's such a sacred place to all 3 religions.According to wikipedia, the Temple Mount is where Adam was created as well as where Abraham sacrificed Isaac (or Ishmael if you're a Muslim).Some amazing religious history on this site, that's for sure.
No, but to the victors go the spoils. Should we have put Mt. Rushmore on the sacred Black Hills of the Sioux? Absolutely not, but to the victors go the spoils.
If that is the case, and I am not arguing it, then the Israels are perfectly justified in rebuilding their temple there right? Also, it was once the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as well. Remember, I am still a Right of Conquest type guy.The Muslims built the Dome of the Rock there as a means of asserting a claim to territory they had conquered. I am not convinced that Muslims really believe in Allah. I sometimes think they just use Allah as a cheap means to justify whatever ends they choose. I am pretty close in m thinking to rejecting claims that Islam is a religion in the first place. I begin to think it is nothing more than a political ideology wrapped up in religious robes. Similar to Nazism, Communism, or Socialism. It is called a religion because it is one of the oldest political ideologies around.
No, but to the victors go the spoils. Should we have put Mt. Rushmore on the sacred Black Hills of the Sioux? Absolutely not, but to the victors go the spoils.
If that is the case, and I am not arguing it, then the Israels are perfectly justified in rebuilding their temple there right? Also, it was once the Church of the Holy Sepulcher as well. Remember, I am still a Right of Conquest type guy.The Muslims built the Dome of the Rock there as a means of asserting a claim to territory they had conquered. I am not convinced that Muslims really believe in Allah. I sometimes think they just use Allah as a cheap means to justify whatever ends they choose. I am pretty close in m thinking to rejecting claims that Islam is a religion in the first place. I begin to think it is nothing more than a political ideology wrapped up in religious robes. Similar to Nazism, Communism, or Socialism. It is called a religion because it is one of the oldest political ideologies around.
Yes Israel has a right to rebuild their temple, from right of conquest standpoint and from the historical standpoint that it was there originally anyway. However, Israel has to weigh the ramifications of what rebuilding the temple might be. It would create a controversial firestorm in the region and may ignite war on an immense scale. So it is also a national security issue at the same time. Odd huh?
scout, can't one say Islam is both a political ideology as well as a religion? There's no separation of mosque and state with them.
scout, can't one say Islam is both a political ideology as well as a religion? There's no separation of mosque and state with them.
I suppose you could although I don't.Don,Yes, there are political ramifications but since the Arabs want to see Israel pushed into the sea anyway wouldn't something like that perhaps be a good move since Israel, like most westernized nations is losing the demographic race with the Arabs.
scout, can't one say Islam is both a political ideology as well as a religion? There's no separation of mosque and state with them.
I think we've ventured into cultural structure. When we consider that the culture in America was founded on the principles of Christianity, but is now driven by capitalism, meanwhile Arabic cultures are founded and driven by religion, it's not hard to understand where extremism and collisions between the two come from. Don't get me wrong, however, in the interest of historical research, I try to keep my own principles from dominating my conclusions, and I can, therefore, say that while Islam has a serious problem with religious extremists, we in the west, too, have capitalistic extremists. However, the Christian foundation in the west keeps our capitalistic extremism at bay. Nevertheless, Putting these two forces together is bound to result in vicious conflicts. The question that I have for you, fellow researchers, is: Keeping in mind that Muslims are immigrating to Europe and North America in record numbers, to the point that they will be the majorities in several European countries in two generations, how can we keep from being at odds? Is it possible for Islam and other faiths to live side by side?
while Islam has a serious problem with religious extremists, we in the west, too, have capitalistic extremists. However, the Christian foundation in the west keeps our capitalistic extremism at bay.
That is a very astute statement. I have long thought that left to its own devices, capitalism leads to a self-serving society, which is why (Christian) charity is an essential social component which helps to tamper capitalist excesses. Greed and materialism, which are detrimental to the common good in the long term, are therefore held in check by spiritual concerns.
The question that I have for you, fellow researchers, is: Keeping in mind that Muslims are immigrating to Europe and North America in record numbers, to the point that they will be the majorities in several European countries in two generations, how can we keep from being at odds? Is it possible for Islam and other faiths to live side by side?
Short answer, No. I don?t see how Islam and its attendant values and social customs are compatible with secular western values and customs. To my personal view it is like oil & water, they just don?t mix. For there to be a possibility of compromise there has to be some common ground to begin with and I just don?t see it. Those that claim to be moderate Muslims are fooling both themselves and the west. They are as close to being good Muslims as the Cathars were to being good Catholics, which is not at all.The saving grace for the western world may be that the people of western societies are starting to wake up and realize the demographic catastrophe that is staring them in the face. The question is what the response will be. I see it as a possible a-b solution set. A is that the western world does nothing and is subsumed and another Dark Age ensues in which case 2,000 years from now the survivors of Muslim domination will look on the 17-20th centuries as some sort of golden age; or B that we are headed to a series of increasingly violent and bloody clashes that will make the European Wars of religion and the ideological wars of the 20th century look like schoolyard fights. I can?t see into my crystal ball clearly enough to say which way we are likely to go.I do however think that Israel, in particular Jerusalem will be the real flashpoint to start any wars to come. The reason is that so many religious ideologies are centered there.Something else, isn?t it ironic that it is only in the West that we agonize over putting down possible rebellions or fighting threats because of our opponents religion and a desire to not seem racist or discriminatory? The Chinese don?t seem to have any moral qualms about crushing Muslim separatists or rebels do they?The again, perhaps I am too much of a throwback. ???
Scout, your views are highly probably, but I hope for the sake of us all there is a third option. As a current resident in Hong Kong, however, I don?t see it being the example set by China, because I have come across top university students from the mainland, who know nothing about the Tiananmen Squared crackdown, the famines caused by Mao?s industrial blunders nor the consequences of the cultural revolution. They are perplexed as to why complaints are made about their country when, as they see it, China never bothers anyone. This type of extreme censorship in order to produce an obedient labor force na?ve of whom and what they really are is not something the west would put up with. Perhaps, however, globalization may be the light at the end of the tunnel. Through joint ventures where companies extend their branches throughout the world, meaning that one branch can?t hurt another without injuring themselves in the process, we may all acquire a common goal. Digital communications, English as a lingua Franca, and interracial partnerships of various types may force nations which insist on segregating themselves to integrate with others, forming a global culture. This would still consist, no doubt, of aggressive competition, but it may avert wars or Islamic dominance. To some extent, this may already be happening in Europe, because the natural birth rate of countries such as Germany and Spain is so low they cannot maintain their societies without the immigrants they?re taking in. In other words, they cannot annihilate the Muslims without destroying themselves. I don?t have a crystal ball either, but I?m just being hopeful.
I would love nothing more than to see a way found where different cultures can coexist and even tolerate each other. Notice, I don't say they should like each other but then toleration and admiration are two different things aren't they? I don't really see that happening though. What I do see is a continued series of more devastating attacks by Muslims on the west culminating in the terrorist use of a nuclear weapon in either Europe or America. The use of a nuke is a line they probably dont want to cross, but then Muslims have never shown a lot of good sense when it comes to restraint have they. I would guess that the terrorist use of a nuke against a western target would see the gloves come off; what would follow would make Auschwitz look tame by comparison.At some point the west has to see that we are not to blame for the conditions of the Muslim world despite all the post-colonial handwringing. People like bin Laden, Iran, and Hezbollah use the west as a foil to deflect their own people from contemplating domestic failings. It is much easier to blame the other than to reform ones self, not so?
Short answer, No. I don’t see how Islam and its attendant values and social customs are compatible with secular western values and customs. To my personal view it is like oil & water, they just don’t mix. For there to be a possibility of compromise there has to be some common ground to begin with and I just don’t see it. Those that claim to be moderate Muslims are fooling both themselves and the west. They are as close to being good Muslims as the Cathars were to being good Catholics, which is not at all.
Scout, how would you explain Turkey then? It's been almost 90 years since we went secular and altough there is a marginal fringe that would like to bring back the Caliphate an overwhelming majority of a society that is predominantly muslim prefers to live in a secular country.
Short answer, No. I don’t see how Islam and its attendant values and social customs are compatible with secular western values and customs. To my personal view it is like oil & water, they just don’t mix. For there to be a possibility of compromise there has to be some common ground to begin with and I just don’t see it. Those that claim to be moderate Muslims are fooling both themselves and the west. They are as close to being good Muslims as the Cathars were to being good Catholics, which is not at all.
Scout, how would you explain Turkey then? It's been almost 90 years since we went secular and although there is a marginal fringe that would like to bring back the Caliphate an overwhelming majority of a society that is predominantly muslim prefers to live in a secular country.
I would say that Ataturk was a genius and the rest of the Muslim world could do much worse than to look at him and modern Turkey as an example of what a bright future could look like. From my understanding, it is the secular strain in Turkey that keeps the Muslim fanatic side from getting too much power. It also helps that the army sees themselves as the guardian of secularism and has leaders that actually believe it. The day that Islamic parties defang the military is the day that Turkey too will begin to go the way of most of the rest of the Muslim world. The problem is not Islam so much as the retards that think it is justified in killing someone who does not believe as they do. Unfortunately, those types of people seem to be much more predominantly Muslim in the modern world than of any other faith.
