I need to rethink my 'anti' stance on amnesty. Do you know how difficult it is to get citizenship? For some, like a good friend of mine, it's close to impossible because he doesn't even, nor can he without having some fake marriage, meet the requirements to get a green card. That's ridiculous.
I would have to ask why he wants to become a citizen in the first place. When you have more people wanting to become citizens than there is space for, you naturally have to prioritize the people who can do it. I don't think there is anything unfair in that.
When you have more people wanting to become citizens than there is space for,
I think it's very fair to question their objective. I think it should be posed as whether they're here for the free stuff or are they here to better themselves and become productive citizens through education and employment. There's plenty of space and if the economic environment improves with the next president, there will be jobs available as well.
It's not that it's not easy, it's impossible for some. If you're a single male or female that just came here on your own there is no path to citizenship. It's a big roadblock. Work visas are temporary and renewal is limited. They can't get citizenship without a green card, they can only get a green card by being here 5 years legally, yet because the way the work visas are setup, that's not possible to do.
It's not that it's not easy, it's impossible for some. If you're a single male or female that just came here on your own there is no path to citizenship. It's a big roadblock. Work visas are temporary and renewal is limited. They can't get citizenship without a green card, they can only get a green card by being here 5 years legally, yet because the way the work visas are setup, that's not possible to do.
The question then becomes - do you believe that any foreigner, regardless of status, should be able to become a U.S. citizen? If so, then on what basis?
To make a better life for themselves. To take advantage of the opportunities available in the US that aren't available in their home country. Are those valid reasons?
I am guessing that you mean “economic” opportunities here. I think it can be a valid reason. Do you think someone who is looking for a job in the U.S. should be able to get one before someone who is escaping political or religious persecution overseas?
Do you think someone who is looking for a job in the U.S. should be able to get one before someone who is escaping political or religious persecution overseas?
That sounds like affirmative action. I think whoever is more qualified should get the job.Do you agree with this about "illegals taking our jobs?" If an illegal has to resort to working under the table, is he really stealing a job from an American citizen or is he just stealing the jobs of those who collect welfare benefits and work under the table.
So you think that a foreigner who is more qualified, but not facing religious persecution, should be granted U.S. citizenship first? Well, leading on to the second question, how is a person working as a day laborer job more “qualified” than the next guy? But in answer to your question, when an illegal immigrant has to resort to working under the table, it is possible that he is taking a job away from an American citizen. Think about it - if you have an apple orchard and there is a scarcity of workers willing to do the work, what happens? I can see a few scenarios: 1) the job taken by an American citizen, 2) the job is left unfilled at the hourly rate being offered, and the orchard therefore has to raise the hourly rate until it is filled by an American citizen, or 3) the job is left unfilled, the orchard goes out of business, and consumers have to buy apples from another orchard which can better control costs.We are really relying on an assumption that American citizens will not work for the same wage that illegal aliens will. I don't think it's really true that illegal immigrants work jobs that American citizens won't, since if you offered a janitorial job to the public paying $100/hour, you'd have plenty of Americans applying for the job. So it's a matter of expected payment rather than the nature of the job.Now we all know that there is high unemployment in which Americans are getting $0 income. I do think that over time, American citizens would take up the traditional day laborer jobs that are often filled by illegal immigrants. Why? Because a) more unemployed Americans equates to a larger supply of workers, and b) a lower-paying job is better than no job and c) if those jobs are not being filled by illegal immigrants, their availability would be attractive to American citizens. If you take away those lower-paying jobs, then Americans do not have that option of filling them if they want to.So in the end, it's all a matter of supply and demand. Perhaps in the past, when more sophisticated jobs were developing in the U.S., educated American citizens went directly to those jobs because the supply was growing. Now that the supply seems to be decreasing, the workforce has to shift to other jobs which are still in demand - such as those which are currently filled by illegal aliens.
I wonder if there has ever been a study done of who exactly are working these under the table jobs. Probably not because both employer and employee usually remain discreet about it. I'm not really assuming that citizens don't want these jobs, but I am assuming that a lot of these under the table jobs are filled by either welfare recipients or illegals.
Now we all know that there is high unemployment in which Americans are getting $0 income.
Really though? Many are either collecting unemployment or some other form of assistance. And I bet many of them would rather do that than work for $5/hr picking brocolli.As a construction employer who hires anyone regardless of citizenship status, would you rather hire someone with zero carpentry experience who fled persecution or would you hire someone with experience?My whole argument boils down to this point: Why should legal citizenship be so difficult and even impossible for one who actually came here with a good moral character and true desire to be a productive citizen, but the path to that citizenship is a roadblock because that person doesn't meet certain criteria? It's why, I think, many of them resort to fake ID's, have anchor children, or make a farce out of marriage.
I actually have heard the line before that illegal immigrants take the jobs that citizens “don't want”. The presumption is actually kind of haughty – that “full-blooded Americans” are too lazy or unwilling to do grunt labor at low pay, so the jobs would go unfilled if not for the illegal aliens. I think that's somewhat ridiculous; if a job goes unfilled, the employer raises the offering wage. This will likely cause the price of the final product to be higher as well.As for welfare - I think the issue has to be separated from the immigration issue. Yes, I think that some people would rather receive benefits for not working rather than take a low-paying job. But that's a problem with our welfare system, not with immigration. Now, would I hire the foreigner with experience or the one without who has fled persecution? Obviously the one who has experience! But that sounds like a case in which the foreigner with experience would be in line for a temporary worker's permit, not necessarily citizenship. If you equate citizenship with a worker's permit, then I can see your argument. I don't think the two are equal, though.I will throw this back at you - should citizenship be open to all who come to the U.S. who have "good moral character and true desire to be a productive citizen"? If yes, then does this apply to those who enter illegal to begin with, or does breaking the law to enter the country show "bad" moral character? Also, what if twenty million foreigners apply meeting the criteria above - do you grant all of them U.S. citizenship? If no, what is your basis for granting citizenship to some rather than all?
If no, what is your basis for granting citizenship to some rather than all?
Isn't it already like that? Doesn't matter what reason you came, if you have a baby or have family here you can get a green card and from there apply for citizenship...which for many means they can now get food stamps, free healthcare, etc. As far as I know, he did not come here illegally as he applied for and got temporary visas (which are now expired and he's reached the limit...which I think is 4 6-month visas).Immigration reform needs to address this issue, IMO. If they just go with across the board amnesty, then there likely will be a problem with a flood of immigrants and a burden on states' welfare systems. But for people like my friend who came here to work, has never lived off the state except perhaps for a grant to get his GED, learned English, and wants a legitimate job, it shouldn't be impossible for him, as it is now, to be granted legal status. I know the world and this country is different now, but he reminds me of one of the old-fashioned immigrants as his motive coming here is the same as theirs. To throw a little liberal emotionalism in this: so 100 years ago, hard-working Irish and Portuguese immigrants were welcomed here, but not anymore?The current immigration laws encourage criminal behavior because the only way many of them can stay is through deception. Laws should be changed that encourage hard work and freedom instead.
I still don't understand why emotion has to over-rule the law.The law is what it is... We just choose to see things in shades of gray when the reality of black and white doesn't fit into a mold we want it to. Whatever the law was back when the immigrants from Europe came here, they did so by whatever the law of that day allowed them. I'm sure there were those who did so illegally and they should have been treated as such: law breakers. The idfference now is we just assume that any sob story should grant someone the same (and in some cases better) rights than those who follow the rules.Sorry... this is just the PC world shoving a square peg in a round hole.
I guess when it hits home, it becomes more “emotional.” Although I prefer the term personal. Speaking with him definitely opened my mind up a bit more about this issue. And I don't think it's Leftist or Liberal to say that since these are people we are talking about, there should be some humanity in dealing with this. The Left is about doing nothing or going "la-la-la, what problem?" while the Right is going "they're criminals, send 'em all home". Neither of those positions are even close to solving or would ever solve the problem.