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One fun issue for me, quite important yet so often overlooked and poorly executed today. I want to share with you some of the reconstructions guys I work with did. Three groups of people are attempting to reconstruct the look of ancient hoplite, reenactors, book illustrators and costume makers for movies.First ones have by far the best knowledge (some do at least) and the least means,funds to make some things possible. But more often they don't have the feeling for realism which can be found especially among Hollywood movie costume designers like Bob Ringwood, Jenny Beavan..who on their part can not be solely used for historical accuracy mostly due to the fact they have to make compromises with film industry who dictates what looks better on screen.Third group are illustrators with the least knowledge and the most freedom, but from some reason they don't illustrate hoplites, they illustrate reenactors who by definition don't posses either the skill or the funds to use real materials. So armor and costume is made from modern fabrics and modern colors and all in all, in words of Bob Ringwood they just look modern..Also weekend reenactorship doesn't really put enough stress into equipment, still very expensive. Illustrators seem only to use them as a source..And unfortunately finish product is the twisted image of simplified equipment, unnatural coloring, oversized armor pieces, anachronistic armor pieces and unseen condition of arms and armor in real world.I applaud the guys who took time and had enough passion and knowledge and artistic sense to make these reconstructions based solely on known facts and obviously museum pieces of armor and weaponry.Greek/Spartan hoplite from late middle to late 6th BC. Spartan is emphasized only because of the fact they had the most complete panoply,since the equipment was government issued one. Also due to the training and style of fighting, physically stronger individual in higher % are more likely to be seen in Sparta and anywhere else. After all they were master pankrationists, and champion wrestlers in ancient OG, no weight categories, so..heavy events,heavy fighters win.http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8120/imagec81f4d04f90b1.jpgYou will notice Mylos type of Corinthian helmet is still in use throughout 6th BC. Bronze has basic, natural patina, though regularly cleaned and LOW polished. High polish state of ancient armor is a reenactor misconception and I will be happy to show it has no base in reality. Fabric is naturally painted one, other than crimson cloaks (Iron ore was used for it http://www.discounttrainsonline.com/graphics/785/L0070.jpg ) there is nothing else known painted in this shade, especially since crimson was an expensive dye. And the decoration of even Spartan clothing is clearly seen in pottery and lead votive figurines. Any sign of uniformity in Sparta other than basic types of equipment is not seen until 420's BC. Most importantly armor fits well, it is not too big.Shields were rarely faced with bronze until late Classical time, rather they were faced with leather, with bronze rim and bronze shield symbol. In case of poorer hoplites the symbol was painted of course, but with government issued equipment and quite a lot of periokoi workers,enough funds I doubt Spartans had to resort to this low cost decoration..Unlike often seen today, bronze symbols were the standard,and paint was the replacement. Herodotus says ''they(Carians) were the first to fasten crests on helmets and to put devices on shields, and they also invented handles for shields. Histories Book 1.Sword or xyphos of olive leaf type was by far the most common secondary weapon in all Greek world, even among Spartans. None of the numerous statuettes, votive figurines, artistic representations from Archaic and Early Classical Sparta show any other type of sword.Another one is the most famous type of hoplite from Persian wars.http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5719/image05274c9917b41.jpgNot much have changed from previous type, other than more common chiton type (if not naked) and the introduction of new helmet type. Breastplate remained basically unchanged throughout Archaic time so same breastplates represent similarity among them. Of course no two were exactly the same but okay...Also early Classical time saw new type of greaves.
Interesting post. Three things:1) I'm interested in hearing why you think that highly-polished bronze would not have been the norm. I presume we would need a textual basis for the character of the level of bronze polishing, unless we could tell by means of something like microabrasions on the surface? Anyway, I am curious why you think low-polish was typical.2) Are you saying that the fabric worn by Spartan hoplites was painted, rather than dyed? Or are you using these interchangeably?3) The picture diagrams in the links show a modern bodybuilder model showing off armor, helmet, etc. However, one thing for reconstruction purposes that deals with veracity is the physique of the ancient soldier. I haven't read any studies on this, but I imagine that the physique of the ancient warrior would have been different than the physique of the modern bodybuilder. The type of training and manual labor performed by Spartan soldiers would have led to growth in certain muscle groups over others. While the ancient warrior may have been overall "stronger" than the modern bodybuilder, he probably would not have looked as impressive (bulkier muscles do not automatically mean someone is stronger). Anyway, just a thought.
1) Very interesting topic indeed…Surface color and overall appearance of bronze armor pieces depend on bronze alloy, maintenance and usage. Popular notion is the following was the appearance of bronze armor at the time. Thanks mostly to the reenactor societies.http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/113main.jpg http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/331main.jpgBut there is no corresponding proof for this whatsoever. Modern notions of clean and nice etc...don't apply to ancient times which were all but... There is a number of polishing techniques and phases, I use LOW and HIGH terms for polish to make a difference between them. Xenophon mentions bronze cleaning/polishing but in no way did he imply it was high mirror gloss, why did we presume that today, I am puzzled, when there are much more low polishing techniques, easier to do and with certain purpose. And I will soon explain how all other evidence points further away from the high mirror gloss.First the question of purpose of polish. Cleaning bronze preserves it since it protects it from so called bronze decease, it removes all kind of dirt and water residue in cracks and dents.Especially in decorated pieces. High polish serves only one - aesthetic purpose.If ancient Greeks found high gloss mirror shine(if achievable back then) aesthetically the only acceptable state of bronze then all bronzes would be in the same state. It would be very strange that they liked regular patinated bronzes in every part of life,but disliked the same state of their battle armor - which is in addition the least artistic piece of them all, which unlike others serves clear, non artistic purpose. If beauty was the only criteria, then artistic pieces would be the first to be in that high polish shiny state. And they weren't nor would it be physically possible. What is more, pottery is often painted to mimic bronze, but not in yellow but in black color. Look at the Vix crater for bronze one http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1388/1385712833_c7ea9cd764_m.jpg, and this clay painted to mimic bronze one http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=13444842. Both from the end of the 6th BC. First one is a Spartan piece of art.So conclusion, aesthetics wise, nothing suggests golden mirror shine was considered beautiful, on the contrary.Also, if those Spartan helots at Plateia who couldn't tell apart Persian gold from Persian bronze, knew only that high polish state of bronze,they would clearly tell it apart, gold being very different than the material they are used to.. If they knew only bright yellow shiny bronze,they would be familiar with it enough not to mix it up with very soft and different looking gold. On the other hand, if they are used to bronze that is not that shiny and so golden in color, better say more dull and darker bronze(regardless of the color,olive or liverish) and are faced with the bronze which resembles gold in color or shine, they would think all golden colored pieces are in fact gold..Those bronze pieces would not look familiar to them and they would mix up the gold and the bronze.I get that point.We have no proof whatsoever of the state of armor in archaic or classical times in Greece. So more or less we are speculating. Armor was probably found in all sorts of shades and states of preservation.Depending on many factors.Some armor pieces are extremely crude,some are extremely fine.So naturally the finish was a specter of finishes.BUt...The only clear purpose of polishing armor in that time is preservation, and cleaning. Not allowing it to develop the patina that hurts the material, and not allow dirt and other kinds of residue to remain on the panoply. More or less the same practice we have in modern armies...That is achieved with far lower polish than mirror shine. Was it nice, pretty, astonishing, frightening or none of those is pretty much a speculation..and comes down to a personal taste. I personally don't find shiny armor frightening, but more on that later on... And all those literary evidence do not provide us with a clue on what exactly ancient Greeks meant by polished bronze, especially since every reasonably smooth and cleaned metal surface could be considered treated or polished,and gleams beautifully in the sun and fits into those ancient literary evidences as perfectly as mirrored bronze does.. The frightening part of shining armor so often mentioned, comes not from the color or mirror reflection (which is a modern projection since there is no reason to believe mirror finish was appreciated in antiquity as it is today, and I am certainly puzzled as what exactly is frightening about mirror shine) but from the fact it is metal shining, which then means you are up against very well armored army/hoplite, which then means they are rich and therefore well trained and equipped hoplite/s, which then means you are in a big trouble.Since you all know full panoplia, was not that common in ancient Greece, even in Archaic era since it was quite expensive.That is what is frightening about panoplia in the sun, not the polish or any other finish or the bronze color. Patina or initial protective layer,not the pale green stuff, is developed in bronze pieces in a matter of days even hours, depending on conditions and alloy. It can not be preserved as it changes,but the deterioration of material can be prevented by maintenance. To keep the constant high gloss state of the bronze piece, one would be required to polish the piece at least few times a week.If not daily. An impossible task. And for what purpose? Since every polish removes certain amount of material from the piece, what do you think how much material is removed in 10 or 20 year time of such often polishing, not to mention the inheritable pieces from fathers and grandfathers..Just calculate. If they weren't polished so often, then the armor was in different state in different times of the year..usually in patinated state, and only sometimes mirror shine.Why giving it high gloss then at all? It makes no sense, especially with what is said above.That look has no correlation in the Greek art. Also, much of the modern preservation and restoration techniques determine the look of some pieces of armor in museums. Do you think this is the original look of this piece in 5 BC? It isn't. rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/...nsammlungen_4330.jpg Also there are ways in which the Hellenistic greaves from earlier posts can be preserved in that state in museums...But only because they are intentionally kept in that state, in controlled environment,today..They are not to be used outside for very tough purpose,as in antiquity.What puzzles me about high mirror polish idea is how were then those incised and so richly detailed helmets and shield pieces polished to such shine..Dimensions are very small and decorations and shapes very elaborate. One more nail in the coffin. Of course, we should differ the basic film developed on the bronze from poorly maintained bronze piece. All of those are called patinas,but are very different. Also, what comes to my mind is ancient hoplites were not that gentle towards their equipment as we are today,especially that expensive one...same as those Germans weren't to theirs in WWII,yet I protect and preserve my WWII helmet as if it was made from glass. So my verdict would be ancient armor was kept clean with relative ease and polished for that purpose, but not to a high gloss state, since it serves no purpose but damages the bronze in return - not even aesthetically pleasing since there is enough proof other things were found pleasing instead. The actual color of the basic film would differ greatly, due to the many factors, and we could certainly not point the finger into one particular shade...Modern attempts to reconstruct and reenact serve other, more important purposes, than giving photographic image of antiquity,which is, in my opinion hardly achievable. Anyway,we will need more investigation on the matter.2) No, my mistake..Dyed. Language barrier.3) Well there are many points I will have to disagree. Especially as someone who lives off the bodybuilding sport. This man, as ancients were in average, is around 2cm shorter than average man today. And around 100kg. Spartans were trained from the age of seven, exercises they had to do certainly made their bodies larger and stronger than average Greek. Though average Greek back then was certainly stronger than average internet age man. He probably would look even more ''impressive'', not impressive for any bodybuilder though..you can trust me.These are the guys doing similar stuff ancient Spartans did, kayak, shot put, wrestling...they are not using any steroids they have nothing with bodybuilding except the resistance training, which Spartans had as ell, and have better physique than the Spartan from the pic.http://www.svet.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tanjug-212-290x222.jpghttp://static.politika.co.rs/uploads/rubrike/225876/i/1/Marko-Novakovic.jpghttp://www.mondo.rs/slike/vesti/002/493/v249361p0.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTClqsp8HDuBdrfL8riZVFOOeG3hRIz9A4Y62UTMFj6X4N8DnbkWwWhat I want to say is..Spartans were master wrestlers with the most victories in Olympic games.No weight categories back then I remind you again. So biggest wins. Same is with pankration, a big thing in Sparta as well. Sport world in general was based more on the strength than endurance, judging by the athletic events. Armor that weighted around 20+ kgs was not designed for lightweight warriors, nor was the pretty slow and still way of hoplite warfare. So everything implies great strength was needed, as well as the so called strength endurance. Running was down to a minimum if at all, in Spartan case, there was no running in battle..etc..So you can be pretty sure Greeks were heavy fighters, especially trained ones like Spartans..Not ripped like that movie 300 of course, that is stupid..But lumberjack strong.As guys above.One more thing, food. Spartans ate well, and their youth were stronger than the others, literary sources implied this, and youth victor list confirmed. There is no muscle without food, and Spartans had no problem with food, since their unique system enabled them to have all they needed (difference has to be made with ONE LESSON from agoge training where they have to steal for food, it is not a general practice just lesson).On account of your last remark. The classifications of strength are:Maximum strength - the greatest force that is possible in a single maximum contractionElastic strength - the ability to overcome a resistance with a fast contractionStrength endurance - the ability to express force many times overAbsolute strength - The maximum force an athlete can exert with his or her whole body, or part of the body, irrespective of body size or muscle size (lifting weight, pushing something...)Relative strength - The maximum force exerted in relation to body weight or muscle size. (doing a pull up, push up etc..)War and that kind of effort is absolute strength and muscle size does mean greater absolute strength. Arm size does not guarantee the strength since it can be fat over there, but big muscles mean great strength.
Έχει ύψος 0,48 εκ., περίμετρο 1,90 εκ. και βάρος 243,63 κιλά. Από τον τύπο των γραμμάτων που υπάρχουν σε αυτό τοποθετείται στον 3ο π.Χ. αιώνα. Σήμερα βρίσκεται στο εθνικό μας μουσείο. 2. Παρόμοιο βάρος βρίσκεται στο μουσείο της αρχαίας Ολυμπίας. Βρέθηκε στο Πελόπιο και ζυγίζει 143 κιλά. Φέρει επιγραφή βουστροψηδόν, δηλαδή δεξιά, αριστερά και πάλι δεξιά, όπως ζευγαρίζουν τα βόδια. Πάνω σε αυτό το βάρος είναι χαραγμένα τα ακόλουθα: ΒΥΒΟΝ ΤΕΤΕΡΙ ΧΕΡΙ ΥΠΕΡΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ ΜΥΠΕΡΕΒΑΛΕ Ο ΦΑΛΑ, δηλαδή, ο Βύβων με το ένα του χέρι με πέταξε πάνω από το κεφάλι του, ο γιος του Φάλα.Bybon son of Phola, has lifted me over [his] head with one hand.Are you a fan of Bybon or weight lifter ? ???http://www.olympic-weights.org/history-of-weightlifting/history-of-weightlifting-in-ancient-greece-and-rome
What I want to say is..Spartans were master wrestlers with the most victories in Olympic games.
What is your source for this? Because according to ancient Olympic records, this is just not true.
Έχει ύψος 0,48 εκ., περίμετρο 1,90 εκ. και βάρος 243,63 κιλά. Από τον τύπο των γραμμάτων που υπάρχουν σε αυτό τοποθετείται στον 3ο π.Χ. αιώνα. Σήμερα βρίσκεται στο εθνικό μας μουσείο. 2. Παρόμοιο βάρος βρίσκεται στο μουσείο της αρχαίας Ολυμπίας. Βρέθηκε στο Πελόπιο και ζυγίζει 143 κιλά. Φέρει επιγραφή βουστροψηδόν, δηλαδή δεξιά, αριστερά και πάλι δεξιά, όπως ζευγαρίζουν τα βόδια. Πάνω σε αυτό το βάρος είναι χαραγμένα τα ακόλουθα: ΒΥΒΟΝ ΤΕΤΕΡΙ ΧΕΡΙ ΥΠΕΡΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ ΜΥΠΕΡΕΒΑΛΕ Ο ΦΑΛΑ, δηλαδή, ο Βύβων με το ένα του χέρι με πέταξε πάνω από το κεφάλι του, ο γιος του Φάλα.Bybon son of Phola, has lifted me over [his] head with one hand.Are you a fan of Bybon or weight lifter ? ???http://www.olympic-weights.org/history-of-weightlifting/history-of-weightlifting-in-ancient-greece-and-rome
I was impressed with the inscription. I am familiar enough with modern weight lifting and power lifting well,as well as the records.It made the inscription even more impressive. While you mentioned that text there is a nice line there - Ένα από τα πλέον αγαπητά αθλήματα, στο οποίο επιδίδονταν οι αρχαίοι μας πρόγονοι, ήταν η άρση βαρών. Which basically says weight lifting was among most popular athletic activities among ancients. As for the Spartans and Olympic victories...They were the most successful city state with the most numerous victors. I say again and will back it up. If you know of some other lists, which I doubt, please do present them here.Stadion - Spartan victories in total are 28 until 394 BC (22 until 460's - others only later in Hellenistic and Roman era,none in Classical). Krotonians are next with 12. Athens with 10. Others appear fewer times.Pentathlon - is very badly preserved, worse than others, and Spartans have 5 recorded victories..no other city appears more than two times until late Hellenistic and Roman era. But it became a chaos then anyway.Wrestling - Spartans had 11 victories in Archaic times, Krotonians are next with 6..All others appear few times..Here of course are big gaps, especially in Arhcaic era, but it only means both Spartans and Krotonians probably had few victories more(rule of probability). Krotonians ceased to win after their downfall in 480. Spartans had the same faith around the same time.Boys competition - Spartan and Mantinean boys appear the most with 4 and 5 victories until 460's..But Spartan boys won wrestling twice, pentathlon and stadion once..Mantineans boys always boxing.(Spartans did not compete in boxing or Pankration).As I said there are huge gaps so no definite conclusions can be made, but if from fragmentary evidence we find such consistency among victors from Sparta, you can imagine what would the complete list be..Rules of probability, like representative sample or preliminary results in elections.They never stray too far from the expectation done with a certain sample. Note the stadion list which is the most complete for comparison. Now I am curious what is wrong about my statement that Spartans were the best wrestlers with the most victories in games in Olympia??? What Olympic records or list of victors are you referring to that is different from results above. I am very curious.
Now I am curious what is wrong about my statement that Spartans were the best wrestlers with the most victories in games in Olympia??? What Olympic records or list of victors are you referring to that is different from results above. I am very curious.
I was referring to the lists of Hippias, Pindar, and Pausanias
I was referring to the lists of Hippias, Pindar, and Pausanias
And they show other results? So they introduced in from five to ten more victors from one certain city (thereby becoming a city with the most Olympic victors instead of Sparta) ...or denied many of those Spartan I presented. Now I saw different catalogs, but no change was so radical that would make Spartans not the most successful ones in the Games. I am sure you will not mind me asking what are then the results for let's say games of 708 BC, 624 BC,620 BC,616 BC,612 BC,608 BC,600 BC, 596 BC, 592 BC, 588 BC, 508 BC in wrestlingand 716 BC,700 BC,684 BC,680 BC,676 BC,668 BC, 664 BC, 660 BC, 656 BC,648 BC ,640 BC, 636 BC, 632 BC, 628 BC, 624 BC, 620 BC, 612 BC,604 BC,596 BC,592 BC,580 BC,552 BC in stadion708 BC, 676 BC,672 BC,668 BC, 500 BC in pentathlon664 BC, 660 BC, 656 BC in diaulos. etc....according to the lists you possess. This was so far very good online source on Olympic victors.http://www.fhw.gr/olympics/ancient/en/db.html
I think that's a great source!
Me too. This is just a practical application, something you don't have in books. Useful and more clearer list for someone who did not spend hours and hours on this subject...Your sarcasm tells me you overlooked bibliography part of that site...erroneously.Non-Greek BibliographyBaltrusch, E., "Politik, Kommerz, Doping: Zum Sport in der Antike", Gymnasium 104 (1997), 509-521. Bell, D.J., A study of the Keles event in Ancient Greece from the pre-classical period to the 1st century B.C., Edinburgh 1989. Bentz, M., "Sport in der klassischen Polis", in Die griechische Klassik. Idee oder Wirklichkeit. Eine Ausstellung im Martin-Gropius-Bau, Berlin, 1. Maerz - 2. Juni 2002 und in der Kunst- und Ausstellungshalle der Bundesrepublik, Bonn, 5. Juli - 6. Oktober 2002, Berlin/Mainz am Rhein 2002, 247-259. Bury, E., Sport in der Antike, Stuttgart 1983. Cagniart, P., "Seneca's attitude towards sport and athletics", The Ancient History bulletin 14, Chicago 2000, 162-170. Coulson, W., Kyrieleis, H. (eds.), Proceedings of an International Symposium on the Olympic Games, 5-9/09/1988, Athens 1992. Crotty, K.M., Song and action. The victory odes of Pindar, Baltimore 1982. Decker, W., "Sport und Fest im Alten Aegypten", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter. Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 111-145. Decker, W., "Review of Spectacles sportifs et sceniques dans le monde etrusco-italique", Gnomon 71 (1999), Fasc. 6, 498-502. Decker, W., Sport in der griechischen Antike. Vom minoischen Wettkampf bis zu den Olympischen Spielen, Muenchen 1995. Dillon, M., "Did parthenoi attend the Olympic games? Girls and women competing, spectating, and carrying out cult roles at Greek religious festivals", Hermes 128 (2000), 457-480. Doblhofer, G., Mauritsch, P., Boxen. Texte, Uebersetzungen, Kommentar, Wien/Koeln/Weimar 1995. Drees, L., Der Ursprung der Olympischen Spiele, Stuttgart 1962. Eller, K.H., Certamina. Poetische Sportreportagen aus d. antiken Epos, Frankfurt am Main/Muenchen 1981. Farrington, A., "Olympic victors and the popularity of the Olympic games in the Imperial period", Tyche 12 (1997), 15-46. Fears, J.R., "The Theology of Victory at Rome: Approaches and Problems", in Temporini, H., Haase, W. (eds.), ANRW, Teil II: Principat. Siebzehnter Band (2. Teilband), Religion [Heidentum: Roemische Goetterkulte, Orientalische Kulte in der roemischen Welt (Forts.)], Berlin/New York 1981. Fortuin, R.W., Der Sport im augusteischen Rom. Philologische und sporthistorische Untersuchungen, Stuttgart 1996. Golden, M., Sport and Society in Ancient Greece, Cambridge 1998. Grodde, O., Sport bei Quintilian, Hildesheim 1997. Harris, H.A., Greek Athletes and Athletics, London 1971. Herrmann, K., "Olympia. The Sanctuary and the Contests", in Mind and Body. Athletic Contests in Ancient Greece, Ministry of Culture, The National Hellenic Committee I.C.O.M., Athens 1989, 47-68. Hornblower, S., "Thucydides, Xenophon, and Lichas: were the Spartans excluded from the Olympic games from 420 to 400 BC?", Phoenix 54 (2000), 212-225. Hubbard, T.K., "On Implied Wishes for Olympic Victory in Pindar", Illinois Classical Studies 20 (1995), 35-56. Junkelmann, M., "Griechische Athleten in Rom. Boxen, Ringen und Pankration", in Koehne, E., Ewigleben, C. (eds.), Caesaren und Gladiatoren. Die Macht der Unterhaltung im antiken Rom, Mainz/Hamburg 2000, 81-90. Larmour, D.H.J., Stage and stadium. Drama and athletics in ancient Greece, Chicago 1999. Lefkowitz, M.R., The victory ode, Park Ridge, NJ 1976. Mallwitz, A., Olympia und seine Bauten, Muenchen 1972. Mann, C., Krieg, Sport und Adelskultur. Zur Entstehung des griechischen Gymnasions, Klio 80 (1998), Fasc. 1, 7-21. Mannsperger, D., Olympischer Wettkampf. Sportdarstellungen auf antiken Muenzen und Medaillen, Tuebingen 1984. Maroti, E., Bibliographie zum antiken Sport und Agonistik, Szeged 1980. Matz, D.S., Greek and Roman Sport: a Dictionary of Athletes and Events from the Eighth Century B.C. to the Third Century A.D., London 1991. Meischner, J., Bildtradition antiker Wettkampfrequisiten, Jahrbuch des deutschen archaeologischen Instituts 110 (1995), 447-466. Miller, S., Ancient Greek Athletics, New Haven /London 2004.Miller, S., Organisation et fonctionnement des jeux Olympiques in Olympie, Cycle de huit conferences organise au musee du Louvre par le Service culturel du 18 janvier au 15 mars 1999, sous la direction scientifique d' Alain Pasquier, Paris 2001. Miller, S., Arete: Greek Sports from Ancient Sources, Berkeley 1991.Nijf, O. van, "Local heroes: athletics, festivals and elite self-fashioning in the Roman East", in Goldhill, S. (ed.), Being Greek under Rome. Cultural Identity, the Second Sophistic and the Development of Empire, Cambridge 2001, 306-334. Nijf, O. van, "Athletics, festivals and Greek identity in the Roman east", in Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society 45 (1999), 176-200. Patrucco, R., Lo sport nella Grecia antica, Firenze 1972. Petermandl, W., "Der verlachte Athlet. Ueberlegungen zu Sport und Humor im Altertum", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter. Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 185-200. Pleket, H.W., Sport and Ideology in the Graeco-Roman World, Klio 80 (1998), Fasc. 2, 315-324. Poliakoff, M.B., "Competition", in Papenfuss, D., Strocka, V.M. (eds.), Gab es das Griechische Wunder? Griechenland zwischen dem Ende des 6. und der Mitte des 5. Jahrhunderts v. Chr. Tagungsbeitraege des 16. Fachsymposiums der Alexander von Humboldt-Stiftung veranstaltet vom 5. bis 9. April 1999, Freiburg-im-Breisgau/Mainz 2001, 51-64. Poliakoff, M.B., Studies in the terminology of the Greek combat sports, Frankfurt-am-Main 1986. Raschke, J. 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Γαβριηλίδης, Β., Η Ελλάς κατά τους Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνας του 1896: πανελλήνιον εικονογραφημένον λεύκωμα, Αθήναι 1896. Γκάγκαλης, Καζής, Ιωαννίδης, Περιγραφή των εν Αθήναις πρώτων Διεθνών Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, Αθήναι 1896. Δολιανίτης, Γ., Δημήτριος Βικέλας. Η προσφορά του στην αναβίωση των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, Αθήνα 1994. Ζάππας, Ε., Μέγα Βιογραφικό Λεξικό Η δόξα του αθλητισμού. Η ιστορία του ελληνικού αθλητισμού και οι διεθνείς του επιτυχίες, Δήμος Αθηναίων - Πολιτισμικός Οργανισμός, Αθήνα 2000. Μανιτάκης, Π., 100 χρόνια Νεοελληνικού Αθλητισμού, 1830-1930, Athens χ.χ. Παγών, Γ., Περίληψις της Γυμναστικής, Αθήναι 1837. Παυλίνης, Ε., Ιστορία της Γυμναστικής, Αθήναι 1953. Σβολόπουλος, Χ., Γδοντέλλης, Α. (εκδ.), Λεύκωμα Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων. 776 π.Χ. - 1896-1980, Αθήνα 1980. Σκιαδάς, Ε., 100 χρόνια νεώτερη ελληνική ολυμπιακή ιστορία. Επιτροπή Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων 1896-1996, Αθήνα 1996. Συμεωνίδης, Α., Σπύρος Λούης: Η αληθινή του ιστορία, Αθήνα 1985. Ταρασουλέας, Α., Ολυμπιάδες στην Αθήνα (1896, 1906), Αθήνα 1988. Χρυσάφης, Ι., Οι σύγχρονοι Διεθνείς Ολυμπιακοί Αγώνες, Αθήναι 1930.Or are you that much of an expert to call all of them bad sources...and those ARE great sources.If you remain at your position,whatever it is (since you seem to avoid answering a concrete question), please, for the third time, do tell us what is WRONG about information given so far concerning Olympic victors, since you obviously have some other information I missed. Please correct me. Let us all learn something.Or have you realized by now that you misjudged something here.
