- This topic has 4 voices and 10 replies.
-
Posts
-
What would Western Civ look like without Christianity, and what would Christianity look like without Western Civ? True, we presently do have some extant examples of the latter. How much do these two go hand-in-hand? Would Western Civ look the same without Christianity?
Short answer, no. Western Civilization is not comprehensible without Christianity any more them Middle Eastern Civilization is comprehensible without Islam. Both religions are part of what defines their respective cultures.
So are you saying pre-Christian Greece and Rome are not Western Civilization? Christianity happens to be the predominant religion in WC, but it is also a more universal religion than any other in the world. This is hard to expalin, but I don't think Christianity defines WC, I just think WC makes (made?) it possible for Christianity to thrive. My own beliefs make me think WC would not have and cannot survive without Christianity, but I think there are valid secular arguments against this. It could be said that other things (government structure, more free and open culture) are what makes WC.
No I am not saying that, I am more talking about contemporary Western society than ancient. Christian defines current Western Civilization, it is part and parcel of what the West is and a large part of the reason why it is the way it is. Part of the reason the West is so open is the precepts of Christianity. Say what you will, but the Greeks and Romans were not open societies by and large. I would argue that the Romans were a more open society than the Greeks, one reason the Greeks were conquered by the Romans.This kind of speaks to some other discussions we are having too. The Romans were very good at assimilating conquered peoples until late in the imperial period. It was when they stopped that the Empire fell.Absent Christianity, some sort of Western society would exist, but it would not even remotely look like what we have now. I am not even certain that a unitary western society would have arisen if one faith had not become predominant. All the major civilizations are based on a dominant faith, even if they tolerate the existence of others faiths, which not all do. Faith of some sort if the common denominator among civilization types. Even the ancient Greeks and Romans had a unitary faith although they did tolerate the existence of others as long as they did not appear to threaten their Empires.
Don't take me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. I just think Western Civilization had already been defined before Christianity. Well, I guess I do disagree with you separating ancient and contemporary WC because so much of how our society operates now (economics, politics, warfare, social life) is taken from the ancients. But on the other hand, this leads to a question. Could the increasing secularization of WC lead to its demise?
I cannot even imagine Western Culture without Christianity. It would still be “Western” but it would be vastly different.
But on the other hand, this leads to a question. Could the increasing secularization of WC lead to its demise?
I think it already is to some degree. How else do you explain the apparent progressive self-loathing for their birth culture?
I just think Western Civilization had already been defined before Christianity.
I think that Western Civ definitely took root in those pre-Christian cultures of Rome and Greece, but was it fully realized before those societies fell? By the same token, would we say that early Christian societies of the Holy Land were fully part of Western Civ? It seems that it was only after the Greek and Roman ideals germinated within a Christian Europe that Western Civilization really developed.
That is the point I was trying to make just not as eloquently. It is a combination of the Greek and Roman legal and societal traditions wedded to Christian idealism that make Western Civilization special.
Maybe it's my Greco-Roman bias that says Western Civilization was already special before A.D.1. It wasn't Christianity that gave us a Senate or democracy or capitalism. Christianity enhanced it and let it spread, but it was already there. WC isn't made up by a religion, it is made up by humans.
Maybe it's my Greco-Roman bias that says Western Civilization was already special before A.D.1. It wasn't Christianity that gave us a Senate or democracy or capitalism. Christianity enhanced it and let it spread, but it was already there. WC isn't made up by a religion, it is made up by humans.
Youre probably right, you are biased ;D. My point is not to defame the Greeks and Romans but to point out that Christianity is a totally different kind of faith than that in the rest of the world and that it is mostly responsible for western particularism. Both Antiquity and Christianity are necessary ingredients to the finished product though. Neither would have developed the same in isolation from the other.
Maybe it's my Greco-Roman bias that says Western Civilization was already special before A.D.1. It wasn't Christianity that gave us a Senate or democracy or capitalism. Christianity enhanced it and let it spread, but it was already there. WC isn't made up by a religion, it is made up by humans.
I think yes, you can say that Greek and Roman culture were already special before Christianity came along. It's just that Western Civilization - as we know it - has an echo of the Christianized version of post-Rome European history much more than the Greek or Roman version alone. Some of the values that were considered admirable under Rome were reversed when the Christians came through. Society would go on to develop in a decidedly different way under Christianity than it would have had the Roman Empire survived intact all the way through.Think of it this way - if the early Christians had established a kingdom on their own, with no influence from Rome or Greece - it would also be rather different from what we have today in Western Civilization.
