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I am delighted to see that we agree than the banning or burning of books is just not the way to go,but I am shocked that you put this little book in the same category as Mein Kampf or Das Kapital.Mr. Zinn may arouse passions, but his books are hardly in the same league as those penned by Hitleror Marx.I believe that Mr. Zinn saw the books that were written and found them wanting either because certainsubjects were not covered at all or because they were glossed over or contained statements that were not factual. I think he wanted to fill in the blanks.Let me give you 10 examples of the kinds of things I mean.1. American Revolution--I did not learn in High School that only one third of the colonial people inAmerica supported the revolution--the others were Tories or indifferent.2. Manifest Destiny--I did not learn in High school that Polk manufactured a war with Mexico so as togain territory--it seems un American!3. I did not know that one of the first things Woodrow Wilson did when he became president andmoved into the White House was to dismiss all the black supervisors.4. I did not know that slavery was regularly justified by Bible scholars--and people said this is good--the sons of Ham ought to be hewers of wood and drawers of water.5. I did not know that A.G. Palmer and his horrid little lapdog--Hoover violated laws on a regularbasis during the Red scare following WWI.6. High school textbooks are silent about the fact that JFK's father bought the Democratic nominationin West Virginia thus placing is son of the road to the presidency.7. Commentary on the Iran-Contra disaster are discussed very briefly and without much depth incurrent text books. The President's lies are merely dismissed--he was old.8. Current texts do a very poor job when describing alternatives to Capitalism and Democracy. In arecent interview Newt Gingrich was asked whether he thought our President was a Socialist. he replied--yes! Now we both know he has a PhD in History so it is somewhat surprising that he answered as he did as a "Socialist: is one who belies that the Government ought to control the means of production, distribution et al. In fact, if you look at our President closely, you might well conclude that he is much more likely to be a Fascist than a Socialist. So if Newt blundered in such a manner--what can we expect from little Audrey who believes that textbooks contain truth rather than viewpoints.9. Current textbooks do little to enlighten students concerning the struggles between capital and labor from 1865 to 1941. The Pullman strike, the violence in the mines, the shops and the oilfields , the IWW and Big Bill Haywood, Eugene Debs the Holmstead strike, the CIO, the UAW and the battle of the overpass are touched on lightly if mentioned at all.10. Textbooks do not contain much material on the way we acquired Hawaii and what we did to thepatriots in the Phillippine insurrection, the fate of the patriot Emilio Aguinaldo. An American army ofover 60, 000 men was necessary to convince the natives that American hegemony was "good" andbetter than the freedom they had hoped to acquire when the boot of Spanish rule was lifted from their neck. The American soldiers who fought there had some colorful sayings--"civilize them with a Krag"and some unprintables--L.B.F.M. being one.So all in all I think you will agree that history should be taught using the maximum of factual narrativeand a minimum of cant. You will also, no doubt, agree that it should be taught as it happened--warts and all.
Yes yes, these are all perfect examples of why students need to study history outside the confines of the public educational system. It is not liberal or postmodern to see where America has fallen short of its own boasting as the beacon of liberty in the world. This is a balanced approach to History. However, Zinn and others from the New Left school or the revisionists, actually seek to do more than highlight America's sins, they want to rub our noses in them because of some unfathomable disdain for this nation. I don't think students benefit from reading some writer's angst and frothing over whether the Native Americans were the victims of "genocide" or America perpetuated a caste system when there are more complicated issues at hand that show a counter movement directly opposed such as the abolition movement, the missionaries who spent countless hours with the Native Americans, and of course the Civil War itself that altered this nation's course showing how multifaceted and diverse this nation really is.
Don't mean to hijack this but I need to follow up on Donnie's comments.
.... I think he wanted to fill in the blanks.Let me give you 10 examples of the kinds of things I mean.1. American Revolution--I did not learn in High School that only one third of the colonial people inAmerica supported the revolution--the others were Tories or indifferent.
Nor did I... at least I don't think I did as AmRev bored me in those days. Learned it in college and taught it to my eight graders. They needed to know though usually unified we're very seldom unanimous.
2. Manifest Destiny--I did not learn in High school that Polk manufactured a war with Mexico so as togain territory--it seems un American!
I was paying attention that day... my teacher required us to read 1846 by DeVoto. Truth told I didn't read it completely until I was in my 50's even though it was assigned in college as well 8) But Polk was defending the good American that settled Texas... my take is as soon as the took the free land from Mexico they weren't Americans anymore. Lincoln was right... "show me where on American soil blood was shed."
3. I did not know that one of the first things Woodrow Wilson did when he became president andmoved into the White House was to dismiss all the black supervisors.
Learned this much later, possibly when I read Zinn, but consistent with the man and his cultural baggage. Ugly to us... the norm for him.
4. I did not know that slavery was regularly justified by Bible scholars--and people said this is good--the sons of Ham ought to be hewers of wood and drawers of water.
Even many of the abolitionists weren't too fond of the sons of Ham being in their neighborhood... more concerned about their personal salvation than equal rights for the Blacks.
5. I did not know that A.G. Palmer and his horrid little lapdog--Hoover violated laws on a regularbasis during the Red scare following WWI.
An example of it being okay to break one law to enforce another... not what we want to hear, but unless we do it continues. Main reason for the Constitution is to prevent stuff like this. See how well it's working? 😉
6. High school textbooks are silent about the fact that JFK's father bought the Democratic nominationin West Virginia thus placing is son of the road to the presidency.
Can't mess with a martyr, eh? Had JFK lived he'd have spent lots of time living down what dad accomplished; unless he got a pass, like on so many other issues.
7. Commentary on the Iran-Contra disaster are discussed very briefly and without much depth incurrent text books. The President's lies are merely dismissed--he was old.
See 5 above....
8. Current texts do a very poor job when describing alternatives to Capitalism and Democracy. In arecent interview Newt Gingrich was asked whether he thought our President was a Socialist. he replied--yes! Now we both know he has a PhD in History so it is somewhat surprising that he answered as he did as a "Socialist: is one who belies that the Government ought to control the means of production, distribution et al. In fact, if you look at our President closely, you might well conclude that he is much more likely to be a Fascist than a Socialist. So if Newt blundered in such a manner--what can we expect from little Audrey who believes that textbooks contain truth rather than viewpoints.
Simple; I asked the kids who wanted a free college education... all hands up. Who wanted a job for life... all hands up. Assured retirement with benefits... again all hands. "Welcome to communism", I said. We then looked at the 10 point program from Uncle Karl... pretty scarey. Even HS sophomores can understand the gov't owning and controlling all the land, banks, industies, and transportation. Add to that the abolition of property rights and inheritance... they'll get it quick.
9. Current textbooks do little to enlighten students concerning the struggles between capital and labor from 1865 to 1941. The Pullman strike, the violence in the mines, the shops and the oilfields , the IWW and Big Bill Haywood, Eugene Debs the Holmstead strike, the CIO, the UAW and the battle of the overpass are touched on lightly if mentioned at all.
My kids got the benefit of me being a union rep. 😮 Seriously, if one studies the Industrial Revolution one will see why unions exist. Not defending the way NEA and the like work on a national level but at the local level w/o a union some folks get squashed. Union type or not the teacher needs to step up, forget the test for a day and get the kids up to speed on what makes the world work.
10. Textbooks do not contain much material on the way we acquired Hawaii and what we did to thepatriots in the Phillippine insurrection, the fate of the patriot Emilio Aguinaldo. An American army ofover 60, 000 men was necessary to convince the natives that American hegemony was "good" andbetter than the freedom they had hoped to acquire when the boot of Spanish rule was lifted from their neck. The American soldiers who fought there had some colorful sayings--"civilize them with a Krag"and some unprintables--L.B.F.M. being one.
Bad as it looks we need to see it to understand how much better we've gotten.
So all in all I think you will agree that history should be taught using the maximum of factual narrativeand a minimum of cant. You will also, no doubt, agree that it should be taught as it happened--warts and all.
The thing that keeps this from happening enough is the same reason we don't tell the little kids most of Columbus' sailors were likely rapists and murderers... they aren't ready to learn the truth (think Nicholson in A Few Good Men). By the time they are ready it's too hard, in most cases, to unteach the fluffy crap. "nother reason I'm out of it... I unfluffied too much for some peoples' taste. ;D No angst and frothing though... just a healthy dose of what's wrong with this picture? We need to check our hold card once in awhile... this was my way of doing so. Curiously most parents that commented were very positive; must have been okay.
Perhaps, and is just a notion, Zinn and his myrmidons pummel us a bit too much because they knowthat to break through the accretion of propaganda (in the good sense) and hogwash in which students have been bathed for all their years in school an acidic remedy is needed. The fact that Indians were considered an awkward reality whose fate was to wither away and that many Americans accepted a caste system are truths that need an airing. We surely do not condone a whitewashed version of our history as that is both dishonest and insulting. Full disclosure, but in a balanced manner would seem to be the best of all possible worlds. If the instructor is successful, the mind of the student will grasp the fact that notall authority figures are to be believed, that truth has many faces and at the end of the day one mustconsider the evidence and make a judgment for himself as to the veracity of the proposition. Historyis not Algebra and thank heavens that that is so.
Wally: I sure wish you lived down the street. Let me respond as best I can.1. I too was bred by the American Revolution--so puny compared to the events in Europe. Later I learned I had been mistaken. it is taught like rootcanaling in High Schools--I remember.2. Polk was determined to take the land--slavery was not absent from his calculations.3. Wow--you have a great memory--I saw it in Zinn and no where else--why?4. Many slave owners loved to quote the Old Testament where concubinage, slavery and patriarchywere exalted and fierce vengence would be visited upon those miscreants who violated the laws.5. And we accept this still. What does that say about us as a people?6. JFK got a pass on almost everything--rich, good hair and charming--but not a war hero.7. Iran-Contra--agreed--The fraud should have gone to jail!8. Problem here: My argument is that there has never been a Communist State at least according to aMarxist definition. Communism happens at the last stage when the state "withers away". Have not seen that yet. We have had states that called themselves Communist, but were that in aspiration only andusually totalitarian regimes hiding behind a scrim of Marxist rhetoric. We have had other states that called themselves Socialistic and in some ways they were. In Sweden the government never owned the means of production and the same can be said for France, Germany, England, Canada et. al. Thesestates borrowed elements of the Socialistic program, warped them to their peculiar needs, and instituted them. Social Security, medicare and medicaid are our borrowings and perhaps health care, aprogram proposed by many Presidents since the beginning of the century. The real problem is that I no longer know what people are talking about when they use certain terms--we have different definitions. I use the dictionary and have no idea what source they use=--perhaps Newt or Glen beck.9.I too was a union activist--I believe I belonged to about 6 over the years--the most unusual one wasThe International Ladies garment Workers Union. Later I became a "suit" and sat on the other side of the table--but that is another story as you have said on another post.10. Right on! We need to talk about it so we do not fall into the trap today. How many young people in Afghanistan and Iraq today are aware of that tawdry experience in the islands or of Smedly Butler'scommentary that as Commandant of the Marine Corps he was just the muscle for American companies in Central America. Lots of these kids are out of high school and if they go to college they will be trained, not educated--if they do not know now then they never will and another generation will wallow in ignorance--which is not all bad for some people running America.Final note--stolen from a book about the decoding of the German codes using the enigma machine."Truth is so precious that it must be surrounded by a bodyguard of lies".
#8 won't happen because no one will step down (admitting the goal has been reached) because they would have to give up power, No one wants to give up the bigger desk, thicker carpet, corner office, or any of the other trappings of an IC.Also no communist revolution in any industrial society as the industrial revolution provides the means for the worker to advance and have a better life. All the communist revolutions were in agrarian societies with landless peasants.I'd say we pretty much agree on the rest. 😀
I am not going to quote your post here but I will answer all the poin5s from the perspective of someone who has only been out of high school for 20 years.1. I did not learn much but the standard line on the Rev in High School I learned more from family history. My family settled in the State in the 1750?s and split during the Revolution, that is why I have relatives in Canada.2. We did cover Manifest Destiny in detail and we also learned that Polk manufactured the war. My teacher went out of her way to explain the origins of the war to us. The funny thing is that general opposition to wars of conquest only dates to Post-WWI and prior to then it was an accepted part of international diplomacy. THAT WAS NOT TAUGHT WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL, NOR IS IT TAUGHT NOW.3. I did not know that until recently and don?t really see how it is relevant to our judgment of the man. I dislike Wilson for many reasons but that is not one of them. As Wally said, that type of racism was the norm in his day. I condemn Wilson for his misguided idealism about nationalism and self-determination much more than his ideas about race.4. I learned this in our HUGE Civil War unit in my sophomore year. We were also taught that slavery was only recently largely abolished in the world and that it still exists in many places.5. This I did not learn in school. But my dad taught me that anybody who expects the government to always follow its own laws is a fool and we should probably try to sell them used cars too.6. High school textbooks are silent about a lot of supposedly uncomfortable facts, this is one. I tend to put minor stuff like this down to limitations of space. There is simply not enough space or time in the limited history classes in junior and high school to air every piece of dirty laundry in America?s past.7. Can?t speak to this as I was in school when this happened and most of my peers and I were cracking jokes about how easy it is to get a pass if you ?cannot recall?. This was contemporary to me and not history.8.
8. Current texts do a very poor job when describing alternatives to Capitalism and Democracy.
Are there good, workable alternatives to capitalism and democracy? I am reminded of the Churchill quote
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried
I have heard plenty of talk about alternative forms of governance both in and out of school but have yet to hear one that sounds like I will get a better deal than capitalism or democracy. This appears to show that at least some schools are talking about it: Follow the rules, comrades ... or elseThe argument about alternatives seems to come from those that benefit the most from our current set-up, which leaves me puzzled as to why they want to change a system that they benefited from? Wally is on point here as well by pointing out that Marx was dead wrong in predicting that industrial workers would seek to change the system, that would be kind of like biting the hand that feeds them would it not? It is indeed significant, that Marxist/communist revolutions have only been successful in agrarian societies. Fact is that Marx?s prescription has failed, and failed miserably, unfortunately there are still plenty of folks that do not seem to recognize that.I agree that Obama is not Socialist, I don?t think he is fascist either. I think his politics resemble that of the late Roman Republic in which he tries to buy off the mob. The difference is that he wants to fleece the rich to pay for it instead of financing it through booty gained from foreign wars. The principle is the same though. He wants to tax the ?rich? to pay off the poor proles to keep them quiet. What we should be doing is educating the proles to think for themselves and convince them that they will be better off working and providing for themselves.9. Did not learn much abut Unions, but what I have learned since does not make me like them. I think in the abstract Unions at the local level can be a good thing, At the national level it is clear that they are a disaster when they become involved in politics and I don?t see how they can claim to be supporting their membership through political activism. The Union?s place is in collective bargaining with employers not trying to influence elections. The Unions self-identification with the democratic party makes them lose credibility in the eyes of many voters, especially independents. It is hard to trust an organization that appears to be the lapdog of one particular party.10. What would you have textbooks say here? Textbooks cover the story, it seems that your complaint her is that they don?t cover it in the ?correct? manner.I said before, I am a Rankean to the core. So yes, I think the facts should be in there. The question is how do you present the facts such that they are both interesting and don?t lead people to the conclusion you desire them to have? I your list I see a list of America?s supposed sins, has America not accomplished any good? That is the problem with the New Left and Neo-Colonialists; they only see the bad where the right only sees good. Somewhere in the middle is balance and the way the story should be told. But how do we get there?I would submit that first we need to teach the young generation to think critically and to look for themselves instead of spoon feeding them selected tidbits from either side and telling them what to think. Until we do that, this debate is academic anyway.
Wally:Yes we agree. There has never been a Communist Country if we use the pure unadulterated languageof Marx. Those that claimed to be so were frauds much like some nations that claim to be Democraciesand are not.I should like to make one final point. Democracy and Capitalism are both imperfect and nobody disputesthis fact. The vaunted benefits to a worker enjoying the benefits of living in a nation like ours aremany, but again perfection is of part of the equation. If one is fortunate enough to inherit or acquire the skills and talents necessary to thrive in our sometimes unforgiving economic environment, life can be quite sweet and comfortable financially. Because this is not the case,we have adopted over the yearscertain elements of a safety net so as to provide the worker with some semblance of security. If it wasgood enough for Bismarck in the 19th Century it ought to be good enough for us in the 20th.Democracy, Capitalism and a safety net (how big remains a problem) seems to be a reasonableapproach to achieving a stable and tranquil society where each person can find his place. Once weemerge from this slough of despond we can address how best to realign our workforce and politicalinstitutions to meet the new challenges we are sure to face. Enjoy the remains of the day.One final point. I know of no sysand are not.
....I would submit that first we need to teach the young generation to think critically and to look for themselves instead of spoon feeding them selected tidbits from either side and telling them what to think. Until we do that, this debate is academic anyway.
Sadly true... but you are correct about what and how we need to teach; first, last and always. Not, however, likely to happen any time soon. 🙁
Scout:1.Being out of high school for 20 years would seem long enough to purge your system of the pablum fedto you whilst there. I am assuming that you went to a normal high school circa 1990. I did in an earlier era. You have an added advantage in that your family was historically minded and have been here a very long time. Mine came in 1848 and in 1888 and my wife's in 1901. They were all peasants and mymaternal grandfather, who never owned shoes till he was 18, was a pig farmer prior to coming to America via Canada where he deserted the Canadian army who had paid his passage from Ireland.2.Manifest destiny was passed over quickly in my high school and the theme was that we were bringingthe benefits (sic) of civilization to the benighted brown and red races that inhabited the lands stretching to the Rio Grande and the Pacific. You do admit of course that there was opposition to theMexican war and the Spanish American war--check the Teller amendment for the latter which guaranteed that our control of Cuba would have to be from behind a curtain of money and influence rather thanacquisition. Mark Twain and others was most critical of that whole conflict as you are no doubt aware.The idea of A democratic republic having colonies was repugnant to many and absurd to many more.3.Wilson: Poor Woodrow--his reputation waxes and wanes. I only mentioned the race item because iwas so surprised by it. Teddy had blacks for dinner at the White House, but he was from New York, not Virginia. I am guessing they did not mention this in High school because it would have been in poor taste or the teachers did not even know about it. Few had graduate degrees in History. Wilson hasenough to criticize in his knapsack--this was just a morsel to which those of us who are eternal sophomoric gadflies are heavily addicted.4.I understand it still exists--virtual as well as actual. Mercifully cubicle dwellers are no longer whippedfor rule violations--merely sacked. The new slavery is real.5.Your father was a very wise man. They should have warned us of this in school. Why do you supposethey did not? Are not the schools supposed to prepare us for life? My father died when I was quiteyoung and I lost the benefit of his guidance and wisdom. What I did have was uncles who wereinvolved in law enforcement, unions, one was head of the County American Legion and several werevets of WWi and WWII. We also had priests. They taught me to obey the law, not to question authority,follow the rules and respect my elders. Of course I did the opposite.6.Ok--I did not mean we should air the dirty laundry. What I meant is that we should strive for a fair andbalanced account of our past. At one point in my life I taught History at the high school and college levels and I always managed to steal a few moments to point out that there are other voices out therewith other stories to tell. There really is enough time and you feel a lot better relating to them thatthere is often worth and meaning in the parallax view.7.Oh it was awful! A senile (?) President, a lying colonel, law breaking staffers--it was almost enoughto ruin dinner. Iran-Contra--ugh!8.Winston--oh what a fellow--lots of good--some bad. Like Wilson he was moulded by his times and foundit unreasonable and possibly foolish that Indians could rule themselves--Democracy for some, but notfor all! Oh well--his mom was well loved.Of course Wally was right--Marx never took a course in psychology, never had a real job, and according to Mrs. Marx--lacked Capital!There has never been a nation that followed his teachings--Scientific Socialism--although many, includingours ,have adopted ideas from progressive and socialist agendas. Many European nations which are infact true democracies provide what they consider a better deal for their citizens than we provide forours. Some examples of these are universal health care, guaranteed 30 day paid vacations, maternityleave--in many cases paid for--old age pensions more generous than ours, subsidized child care centers for working mothers and many more. Now all of this is not free and the tax burdens are higher. The point is that they voted for it, they pay for it and they are, in most cases, content with it despite theproblems that always exist in providing services to the public. I have lived abroad for several years and have been to many places in front of and behind the iron curtain. I have concluded that people arehappiest when they control their own destiny and choose the form of economic and political systemsunder which they will live. If they choose to tax themselves and provide a broader safety net--then that is their choice and they are not less moral or less worthy as human beings because they have decided that the government ought to be charged with tasks that in America we do for ourselves. Democracy allows this to happen--we choose and if they fail to deliver--we can vote the bastards out!Of course Obama is not a Socialist--Newt was wrong to say so. I did not say he was a fascist--I said his actions could lead one to conclude he was acting as a Fascist--which would, of course, be foolishlyhyperbolic. Obama's tax desires count for little. Congress decides who gets taxed and who does not--they write the legislation and ,if signed, it becomes law. This is democracy in action. If they decide totax the rich to fund programs deemed necessary for the nation's well being, we have no choice but toobey the law or choose the path of the lawbreaker and engage in illegal or criminal activity. The choiceis yours. At least some of your ancestors decided that King George III's financial wizards were deadwrong in their desire to tax the colonies and revolted. Thanks to the French we succeeded and over200 years later are still undecided as to who should pay for what. I was in law enforcement for over 20years and should warn you that prisons are horrible places in the USA--overcrowded, underfunded anddangerous. Pay your taxes--stay out of jail! If you are unable to stomach this--start a revolt, find anally and overthrow the government--you are free to try.If your solution to the current problem in to educate the proles, I suggest you re-read Brave New World, especially the sections mentioning SOMA and check your texts for the disappointment of King Canute.9.I belonged to many unions--some good ,some bad. I learned almost nothing about them at school, butas the local steel and auto plants employed over 100,000 people I was inculcated at an early age withthe union ethos. You are correct about parties--everyone in my family--all of them--were members of FDR's party and part of his supporters. After the 1960's many of the faithful deserted and helped electRonnie in 1980 as he seemingly stood for things they believed in. The firing of the Air Traffic Controllerssurprised them a bit and was a foreshadowing of the labor debacles to come. As Corporations have been deemed "persons" due to, I am told, a misinterpretation by a law clerk rather than a ruling of the court,so too unions have the same rights. The problem is that Corporations have and will continue to have alot more money to Lobby lawmakers who seemingly cannot resist the pressure. A clever friend suggested we hold a second Constitutional Convention and have the fifty largest Corporations substitute for the 50 states, close the doors and spin the wheel and see what happens. It would make the de facto de jure. Think he is being silly?10.Textbooks do not cover the story--they cover the part approved by the state in which the school districtis located. The correct manner is to tell--as best as possible--the whole story. Consider the absurdity of Texas. Here is an example. When in school, did anyone ever discuss the concept of jury nullification--bet a buck they did not and you know why!Rankean:Bully for you--choose your documents with due diligence--he did.America has done more good for the world than all the rest of the nations in the world since thecity of Jericho was first built. However, we are not perfect and I am appalled by the media outlets that fill the airwaves with paeans of praise for our nation as though it was perfect in all ways. The proleslap this up like moonshine and ,lacking critical thinking ,utilize the sound bites in lieu of thought andmouth platitudes and cliches to each other and call it speech. I am proud to be an American and mostof the time I am supportive of the government that we have elected to run the establishment for a time.One must never confuse the government with the nation--the administration is the hired help.Thank you for taking the time to respond is such a courteous and learned manner. it is much appreciated. This appears to be forum with an embarrassment of riches.WillyD
It has always seemed to me that the great Marxist cry of
“to each according to his needs, to each according to his ability”
is a pretty good distillation of the essence of capitalism in some respects. Further, Marx sounds like someone whining that they got left out. As if is he was any good at anything but complaining he would not be complaining but would be busy exploiting the workers he claims to be arguing for. I also think that both he and Engels were hypocrites. Engels for being an industrialist and Marx for accepting Engels' support which derived from industrial profits. But then again, many of the leade4rs on the left have always been hypocrites, benefiting from the very system they decry at every opportunity. I often think this is because they know the system will not change because their prescription is unworkable and they know it. They are not above profiting in both ways though. 1. from the unfettered use of the capitalist system and 2. by using the disgruntlement of others to achieve political power.Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are perfect examples of what I am talking about. They derive hefty incomes from capitalists sources while at the same time gaining political power by advocating policies inimical to their own economic self interest with the certain knowledge that they will not personally e greatly affected whether those policies go into effect or not. In the meantime, the right is demonized for being unrepentant about the source of their wealth. I have never understood why successful people should apologize for being successful. It illustrates another wisdom my father taught me as a child, "life is not fair."
But then again, many of the leade4rs on the left have always been hypocrites, benefiting from the very system they decry at every opportunity. I often think this is because they know the system will not change because their prescription is unworkable and they know it. They are not above profiting in both ways though. 1. from the unfettered use of the capitalist system and 2. by using the disgruntlement of others to achieve political power.
Very good point...I hadn't thought of that before.
A father's wisdom is always good to ponder. Did he also suggest to you that one of the most noble andChristian things to do is to seek to ameliorate the burdens of those less fortunate that ourselves? Manyreligions preach this including Christian sects and I believe that that is a very good thing. This oughtnot to be a product of compulsion, but through a realization that we are all children of God andcharity is just another form of love. In my opinion, we should work to make it more fair.Obama, Reid and Pelosi were singled out--what of their opposites on the other side--all tarred with the same brush ?WillyD
A father's wisdom is always good to ponder. Did he also suggest to you that one of the most noble andChristian things to do is to seek to ameliorate the burdens of those less fortunate that ourselves? Manyreligions preach this including Christian sects and I believe that that is a very good thing. This oughtnot to be a product of compulsion, but through a realization that we are all children of God andcharity is just another form of love. In my opinion, we should work to make it more fair.Obama, Reid and Pelosi were singled out--what of their opposites on the other side--all tarred with the same brush ?WillyD
Charity is one thing, social spending through compulsory taxation is something else entirely. They are not even in the same currency much less different sides of a coin. I give voluntarily to charity, I object to the government extorting my taxes to pay for "entitlement" programs I do not support. I don't recall Christ ever saying anything in the bible about taxing some to pay for others being part of the christian ethic, perhaps Don or some of the other more accomplished bible scholars here could weigh in on this point.I guess you missed my point about conservatives not being ashamed of success? It is what it is and the world is a cutthroat place, always has been. I personally find it disgusting to listen to people like Harry Reid talk about the downtrodden while he is at the same time making million dollar Vegas land deals, that is the root of my charge of hypocrisy. I don't think the rich should apologize for being rich nor do I think the government should tax them at a higher rate because they are. In fact, I hope to be one of them someday. Luckily, in America that is a possibility because of the system in which we live. A system the left would have us change by the way. There are winners and losers in everything, economics is no exception. I also don't buy the argument that the system keeps people down, people by and large keep themselves down through lack of desire and lack of drive not lack of opportunity. Ask our current President about opportunity, he has had plenty of it and made out pretty well don't you think?
So you are opposed to the progressive income tax?In fact the system does keep some people down. My wife used to teach in the inner city. All hercharges were black, most were poor and on welfare and few had two parents in the home. If you wereraised in a home with a welfare mom, a home bereft of a father and an income above the minimum, in a home that lacked food, heat, furniture, appropriate clothing, and a respect for education as well as any of the amenities that middle class kids take for granted, it is quite possible tat you would not be chatting here with me today. Nest pas? We warehouse these kids in horrid schools, cripple the teachers from reallyaccomplishing anything, permit the administrators to lie to the taxpayers, coddle the teachers unions,and then have the audacity or stupidity to believe that a sustained improvement is possible. We aredelusional. Life is unfair--in the beginning, in the middle and at the end. C'est vrai--C'est la vie.TAXES: You are obligated by law to pay your taxes. If you refuse you go to jail!You have no option to direct your taxes to any particular program, but you can pretend that they go to something that you do support. OR--you can elect people who support your position on taxes and hope that the system does not corrupt them--bonne fortune mon ami.
