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Identify this image

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  • This topic has 5 voices and 27 replies.
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  • December 22, 2008 at 4:41 pm #14474 Reply
    Phidippides
    Keymaster

    I was very curious since I had never seen the painting before, so thank you because I enjoyed seeing it. ;DThe veil is defining  a ” ghost role” in a complex society, not overly stated but it represents the feelings of a community. Mary is under male protection, she is valued although she does not hold a dominant position in society, she does in the household.The color red, I have to wonder, if it is Sir John Everett's sense of the symbolism we need to look at?Romans at the time of Christ would have associated red with love and fertility, brides were traditionally wrapped in a red/orange veil “the flammeum”. I have no reason to think that a Hebrew carpenter would be wearing red, even though the family may have been more than simple folk, I cannot see a context for a Jew to wear red. Please correct me. In the time of Anglo Saxons, red protects against evil , trees, warriors, weapons and animals were painted red to endow them with magical properties.This is gleaned from “Encyclopedia of Signs & Symbols” by Mark O' Connel and Raje Airey

    I think that there is a limit to symbolic values and if we try to read too much into certain elements we'll go astray.  When is a red tunic simply a red tunic?  When does something just represent the artist's preference?  I'm not saying that Joseph's shirt does not have symbolic value, but that it doesn't necessarily have to.  Iconographic analysis (done in the way of Panofsky) ultimately requires textual evidence to make conclusions (artist's writings, title of painting, etc.).  Otherwise we could try to “read” symbolism into any object.  Also, we would need to know how Millais understood any symbolic value of red.  Even if the color was symbolic to the Jews, if Millais did not know this, or he was not following in any tradition which took from the Jewish interpretation, red wouldn't be representative to this in the painting (unless we knew Millais' specific meaning.And one more thing – I think your interpretation of the veil is not really iconography, but rather interpretation using a psychoanalytic or feminist approach (both of these are legitimate approaches to the study of art).  But what you say is interesting, and could very well be true.

    December 22, 2008 at 9:30 pm #14475 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    This is in over my head.  I'd never catch all the symbolism that you fellas did.  I'm impressed.

    December 22, 2008 at 9:49 pm #14476 Reply
    skiguy
    Moderator

    It's definitely more difficult to find symbolism in art than it is literature.  This discussion makes me want to take an art history class.

    December 22, 2008 at 10:08 pm #14477 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    Not me.  No way.  When it comes to this kind of thing, I have the attention span of a gnat.

    December 23, 2008 at 12:20 am #14478 Reply
    Phidippides
    Keymaster

    Donnie, I don't see why.  It's one way of looking into the minds of people who lived in days past, which is some of what you do anyway.  And much of Christian iconography deals with references from the Bible which you might enjoy. 

    December 23, 2008 at 12:53 am #14479 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    Donnie, I don't see why.  It's one way of looking into the minds of people who lived in days past, which is some of what you do anyway.  And much of Christian iconography deals with references from the Bible which you might enjoy. 

    I don't know.  I never really got into the art thing.  I guess it's because artists aren't theologians, and therefore, their interpretations of things I trust less than those who studied the Word and actually dissect it on more complex levels.  Other than this, I don't really have an answer for you.

    December 24, 2008 at 7:18 pm #14480 Reply
    Phidippides
    Keymaster

    I don't think that artists are on par with theologians in terms of explaining Scripture from a technical point of view, but they definitely do have a way of illuminating it for the soul of man to understand better.  In the end I think each has different roles to play.  But they can complement one another.Also, I think that the familiarity with art history is good for historians in general.  They don't have to be able to dissect paintings (like we did here) or architecture, but they should know how art was viewed in society, how art influenced society, who the major players were, etc. (this will be more important in some locations and time periods than others).  Do you agree?

    December 24, 2008 at 9:02 pm #14481 Reply
    DonaldBaker
    Participant

    Oh I agree that art has historical significance and is an aid to historians, but I never developed an interest in it myself.  Art is definitely a reflection on society in snapshots of time.

    December 28, 2008 at 2:26 am #14482 Reply
    cadremum
    Participant

     

    I agree here, I wanted to point out that Milias would not have depicted Joseph in red if he sought to represent a Jew through symbolic iconography(blood, Jews and red don't feature together in lit.). I think it is as you say, sometimes a red tunic is just a red tunic, it added brightness to the scene or Milias uses color in a way that is symbolic to the Anglo Saxons.

    March 19, 2009 at 12:47 am #14483 Reply
    cadremum
    Participant

    I'm wondering if anyone finds symbolism here worth analizing?

    March 19, 2009 at 8:25 am #14484 Reply
    scout1067
    Participant

    IS that a Nun overseeing a peasant woman digging a grave?

    March 19, 2009 at 2:24 pm #14485 Reply
    Phidippides
    Keymaster

    I'm unfamiliar with any direct symbolism here.  Based upon what we see, the setting is obviously a cemetary and based on the belltower and scenery it looks like southern Europe.  The dress places them as Catholic nuns, probably mid- to late-19th century.  I'm not sure what the artist is saying with the two figures in the image.  Is the one overseeing the other, or are they the same person?  Is the one digging her own grave?  I say this because it seems a bit odd that one would be reclining, sitting on the site of a grave as the other is digging.  Also, the one reclining is looking out at us, the viewers, suggesting we too look to our own mortality. 

    March 19, 2009 at 2:56 pm #14486 Reply
    scout1067
    Participant

    The woman digging is not wearing a Nun's habit.  Even when working nuns wore all black depending on which order they belonged to.  I would agree that it looks like southern Europe, Italy perhaps.Phid you have spotted way more possible symbolism than I have.  I am still trying to figure out the context of the picture.  I would love to know the name.

    March 20, 2009 at 1:26 am #14487 Reply
    cadremum
    Participant

    [flash=200,200]http://www.victorianweb.org/painting/millais/paintings/newman3.html[/flash]Ah, sorry to be late to respond. Its our dear old friend Sir John Everett Millais.”The Vale of Rest” the link has a thoughtful but brief examination of the symbolism.

    Is the one overseeing the other, or are they the same person?  Is the one digging her own grave?  I say this because it seems a bit odd that one would be reclining, sitting on the site of a grave as the other is digging.  Also, the one reclining is looking out at us, the viewers, suggesting we too look to our own mortality. 

    The woman digging is not wearing a Nun's habit.  Even when working nuns wore all black depending on which order they belonged to.  I would agree that it looks like southern Europe, Italy perhaps.

    Two very perceptive takes on Vale. The reason I posted “Vale” was because while  researching Herman Melville, who indulged, I would say, in symbolism, I kept running into Sir John. There is a distinct lack of allegory and symbolism in Melville's “Battle Pieces” ; poems about the civil war, “Shiloh: A Requiem” specifically. It is pointed out in Lit. Critism, that there is no allegory to war, thus Melville declines from his usual habits, out of reverence, I contend.The thing about this painting is that some take it quite far, applying a “lesbian” theme here, based on the two rings in the lower right corner. Wedding bands? Is one digging the grave for the other to deposit her vows to Christ?  that is- married to Christ no longer. The fact that one looks on while the other works must be significant. It does appear to be Europe, though I doubt that Sir John had a girl/girl fantasy here. Thank you for your comments. 😀

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