In a lot of ways it's amazing that Boone is remembered at all. In spite of his reputation he never really accomplished anything of significance: he didn't discover Kentucky, didn't settle it first, underwent a court martial for treason, had Tory connections, etc, etc. To be sure, he lived a fascinating life but there were many other pioneers, many he knew, who did more than he ever did that have been forgotten. The reason Boone is remembered isn't necessarily because of what he did, but because he was the focus of John Filson's narrative – in short, he had a good press agent.
Thanks Daniel – it's been a while since I've had a chance to pop in here (busy getting my PhD!) but I will try and get back more often. If you are interested in frontier history I'd love to hear your feedback on my work – I've posted a sneak preview of my upcoming book on my blog if you're interested: http://www.darrenreidhistory.co.uk/read-a-sneak-preview-of-my-new-book-american-indian/
I made the comment I did because this raises an important historical issue; does the naming of this mission suggest that the government still views the Indian wars of the late 19th century as a legitimate exercise comparable to the mission to bring OBL to justice?
Hopefully not, but another question I ask would be did the US government view Geronimo as an equal threat back then just as the current government views (or viewed) OBL now?
Good question but as Omer said, I don't believe so; more of an inconvenience, although Geronimo's role in the public imagination was far weightier than any real threat he posed.
Let's wait for our special ops expert, Scout ! 😉
Specops expert, I don't think I have ever made that claim. Military historian yes, snake eater no.Frontierhistorian, you lost me at contextualize. And I agree and think you are reading way to much into the codename. If you try to deconstruct the use of the word you will get lost, just ask Derrida. It was probably picked because of there is historical significance to the name, even more likely in my view is that it is an easy word to remember and not a word that sounds similar to something in the local language.
I'm not really reading too much into it, I'm just throwing it out there as a means of generating a discussion; it doesn't particularly bother me. That said, if the operation had been carried out by the British government and the codename was William Wallace it would have really upset a lot of people, certainly a lot of the people I know (bear in mind I am Scottish). To my eyes I could not imagine the British government ever using a codename like that precisely because it would carry a lot of dubious implications. That said, I have no doubt that this is probably just a codename with little thought having gone into it, but in some ways that is an interesting point of discussion - that Geronimo can be used as a codename with little thought. In at least some cases it appears that code names are picked very carefully: "shock and awe" doesn't seem like an arbitrary choice to me.Again, I'm not trying to start a discussion about political correctness, but rather the use of Geronimo as an image, the ideas and connotations that spring to mind 🙂
Maybe because Geronimo had nothing to do with Bin Laden, it was the most secure code !?
Absolutely; like I said I am probably reading too much into it (the naming of Blackhawk helicopters, for example, doesn't suggest anything about Blackhawk or the war he fought) - I don't think it's very important - but it does bring to light a good point for discussion. Assuming there was a direct, intentional link does this suggest something about how (historic) Indians are contextualised? I don't know the answer, but it seems like an interesting question to ask
ThatFrontierHistorian, did you seriously just suggest that the use of the codename "Geronimo" was insensitive and dare I say, politically incorrect? ???
Political Correctness doesn't enter into it. For me this issue touches upon how we think about and contextualise Indians in our past. The issue, for me, is that it suggests - and I said I am probably reading too much into it - a degree of legitimacy for the actions of the US against the Apache. Put simply, I do not think it is appropriate to link Geronimo to OBL, or the Apache to AQD. This is not because it may offend modern Indians (although it's possible, I can't pretend to speak for them) but because it suggests something about the actions taken against Geronimo and his people that I do not think is appropriate. To put it another way - the hunt for OBL was a legitimate exercise, whereas the hunt for Geronimo and his followers was far more problematic. Or, if you like, OBL doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the context of Geronimo just as Geronimo does not deserve the the indignity of being mentioned in the context of OBL.Like I said, I am reading a lot into this and I dare say the government/military did not intend to make any great statement re: how America recognises its own past with regards to the Indians. But I am not making a comment because of political correctness. I made the comment I did because this raises an important historical issue; does the naming of this mission suggest that the government still views the Indian wars of the late 19th century as a legitimate exercise comparable to the mission to bring OBL to justice? That was what I meant by insensitive (I admit it was a poor choice of words); this is an important and (I feel) appropriate type of discussion.All best
I saw this same article (and tweeted about it) earlier today. I do wonder about naming the mission Geronimo; seems a little bit loaded and insensitive, but maybe I am reading too much into it!
I am aware that mtDNA mutates faster than Y Dna, that is one reason tracking it is more precise. I was not trying to cut on you, juts curious as to how the map was produced. I dont think that DNA mapping is totally useless, I also dont think it is definitive either. It does at least give us an idea of what steps our ancestors took. I do think the map is interesting in a rather abstract sort of way.I totally agree, it is a nice, abstract representation. I see your point about the mtDNA now - true, it can trace precise steps but if you look at this map there are only about six or seven main steps here, so it is very broad, as you pointed out. Like you said, things like this are not accurate - how could they be? - but for me they present a nice link to an otherwise completely invisible past.
I was hoping there was a King or Duke in there somewhere.
Don't we all!!
I'm not a specialist but according to your map, your ancestors seem to originate not from Ireland but from present-day Aethiopia (or at last Scotland) ! ???Another famous American's great, great, great grandfather came from Moneygall (Ireland) and he plans to set foot in his ancestral home during a two-day visit to Ireland. Perhaps were they on the same journey, who knows ? 😉http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhideysncwoj/
Haha, I see your point but I dare say that narrowing down my family to Ireland makes as much sense as anywhere else when we're talking thousands of years! That is a good point though - the locations in this map aren't meant to be precise, per se, that's why the lines are as thick as they are. Interestingly, one thing DNA studies have shown is that your family also probably originated in eastern Africa (or wherever mine did) as, at a certain point, all families lines converge.
Hi DonaldOf course, I would be delighted if you posted the videos. I would be happy to post an essay at some point but I am just finishing a manuscript at the moment that is taking up all of my time. As soon as it is done though I'd be happy to contribute; I can chat about history any time, though 🙂
ScoutI created the map myself. I don't think any map like this could ever be anything more than a best guestimate; that's certainly what mine is. The company who tested my DNA were a well known lab; I used my DNA - particularly using DNA databases to compare it - to then look at the locations of my genetic relatives which broadly showed a pattern leading west across Europe with some evidence of breakaway branches in other regions. I won't get into the full process behind the creation of the map (it was very long and very tedious) but I followed the DNA evidence, including gradual mutations in my family line, to make best estimates where my genetic relatives from a given place were likely living at a given time. I don't think you were right in some of your statements about mDNA and its easy transmission; Y-chromosomal DNA passes from father to son very regularly. In fact it does so with more regularity than mDNA which has a far faster mutation rate (this was even mentioned in one of the articles you linked to). In recent years a lot of work has happened on Y-chromosomal DNA. You might enjoy this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070509161829.htmAgain, this map is the product of a lot of research but more importantly it is a bit of fun, looking beyond the usual 2-300 years of family history most people have 🙂
So which specific parts (geographic) of Kentucky does your research focus on? One of our forum members here is a resident of that state.
I work on the whole state, in the years 1775-1795, so the settlement of the region, its transformation into a state, and then ending with the Treaty of Greenville (which ended the Indian war and, essentially, the war with the British in the west. I have used Kentucky as a type of micro-study, a proxy for the wider region. That said I've also worked on Ohio during the same period but it is largely an extension of my work on Kentucky. I have also done some work on Illinois and Indiana in the early 19th century, particularly the build up to the Black Hawk war. I also do a bit of Native American history and, occasionally, modern issues affecting this group.Actually, I can qualify Kentucky slightly - I work on central and western Kentucky. As a rule - and this was said by another Kentucky historian I know, and I found someone in the early 20th century saying the same thing - historical studies of Kentucky tend not to cover the eastern (mountainous) part of the state.
Decades ago I read a book titled America B.C. , in which the author (whose name I have forgotten) postulated that Celts arrived on the east coast over many centuries before Leif Ericson, and one can still find a mini-Stonehenge and other similar evidence of that plus some Celtic words among the Iriquois and Algonquin languages. Don't know if he was discredited or not.Still, Columbus must always receive credit for beginning the permanent European colonization and conquest of the entire New World.
I am sure I heard something relating to the Basque people of France who MAY have whaled off the south coast of Florida - I am sure this is what you must be referring to as I remember it being mentioned that there were - possibly - some remnants of basque words, a language still not fully understood, found among some tribes but I believe the evidence was very circumstantial. Never heard of a henge being discovered in the area but stone structures such as those pre-dated the celtic peoples by some way; celtic culture developed in the iron, not stone age, I believe but I am not an expert in that area so I don't want to push my argument too far. What I will say is that the type of boats used by stone builders could not conceivably have gone to America; not sure about Iron age peoples.
I have heard the Madoc tale before but based on the lack of evidence I can't say I believe it. That said, there is some anecdotal evidence – Indians with blue eyes, etc – which suggests that some Europeans did arrive in America before Columbus, likely through ship wrecks and the like but I do not believe any returned to Europe. That said there was a Viking settlement in Newfoundland and it is not impossible that some contact occurred but I am very sceptical about such ideas. I would be happy to have my cynicism proved wrong, but until real evidence comes to light it just seems like there's too much wishful thinking involved.On a side note, I did find a great account of an expedition into the far west in the Kentucky Gazette (c. 1787-1793 - can't remember exactly and it's too early in the morning for me to dig it out!) in which the explorer encounters a tribe of Indians who (apparently) spoke Welsh. I think this is a reference to the Madoc legend but not Welsh speaking tribe was ever found.
No I've never been, but plan to go next year. I'm part English...and very British at heart lately. ;D Here's a thread about some geneology research I've been doing.
You'll love it. I grew up in a small town on the east coast of Scotland (Arbroath - where the Scottish Declaration of Independence was signed) but always loved Edinburgh; I live just outside the city now. You'll know what I mean when you walk down the royal mile, it's just layer upon layer of history all around you. Good genealogy. I've always wanted to properly study my family history but I am so busy with other people's history that I never get the time. That said I did do a DNA test and compiled my "deep ancestry" for my paternal line over the last 250,000 years. I made a map I could post here - is the General History forum the place for miscellany like that?
Welcome aboard Darren.
Thanks Scout!
So, Darren, may I ask - what got you interested in the history of the early America?
Of course, I get asked this all the time - especially by my family! In broad terms: I did my undergraduate degree at the University of Dundee and I have to give credit to some of my mentors from there for getting me interested in it, particularly Matthew C. Ward (he wrote a great book called Breaking the Backcountry). Matthew's mentor-ship really got me thinking about early America but in general terms the whole idea early America just fired my imagination. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the idea of taking a small number of Europeans, dropping them into an alien land surrounded by an alien people and observing how they responded just seemed to be history in its purest form. In more specific terms, I began serious research (Master's Degree, PhD, career, etc) because of the sources I discovered for the Ohio Valley. There was such a variety of oral history that gave an insight into non-elite frontier inhabitants that I had to study it. I think I finally found the sources that would allow me to study how a group of (illiterate) Euro-Americans reacted in (another) alien world. Does that make sense? I don't think I've ever tried to describe it that precisely before so I hope it's not too rambling or confusing!