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Soaking the productive to pay for the unproductive is the American way isn't it? At some point the demonized “rich” are going to get tired of being scapegoated and many of them will decide to leave for a friendlier environment. Don't believe that they will leave once the tax burden get's to a certain point, as California. They are seeing an exodus of wealthy moving to the tax-friendlier states of Arizona and Nevada.Report to moderator LoggedI do not know if it just the American way--many nations have used this ploy. One of the advantagesof the Income Tax on the Federal level is that is universally applicable regardless of what state youmight choose to abide. As I understand it they can even get at you if you live abroad.The fight among the states to attract wealthy residents ought to be amusing--they might even pay bounties.
Correctamundo!So let us really have fun. Perhaps we should have your employer have his SS extraction placed on his whole salary. This makes it personal.You might also take solace in the fact that it is we who dug this fiscal hole and it is only just that we sacrifice so that our grand children will not have to pay for our getaway trip to Aruba. By sacrificinga bit you would be doing the right thing which in my view is another way of saying--Justice.We have had a glorious ride since the end of WWII and perhaps we must now turn from the god ofconsumption and untrammeled growth to the lesser deity of frugality and common sense.
I have often pondered why, in a democratic Republic such as ours, we care so little about teaching ourchildren about the structure and workings of our government on all levels. One could say myopia ordisinterest or budget concerns, but a friend, somewhat to the left of myself, claims that a sheep that is knowledgeable is a dangerous sheep. He might ask questions. Let the 20 percent be aware and school the other 80 percent for their proper role as cubicle dwellers, clerks and assemblers of imported parts in what we call factories. I think he is not completely wrong.
PERHAPS–We shall see. A slight increase on the “rich” to help pay for medical care for the poor seems neither unjust nor unwarranted. It has been an American tradition since 1916 ( in the broad sense).
I eagerly await the proposal to mandate the happiness of all; we were only promised life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness… the opportunity for same. I'm also looking forward to the free Bubble-Up and rainbow stew (ala old) Merle Haggard song.This will not happen--you are free to pursue happiness without any guarantee of grasping it. Considerlife from the perspective of a really stupid deformed black dwarf born without teeth. He is free torun the race for happiness just as much as Robert Redford, Paul Newman or Brad Pitt.Again--thank you for your courteous and thoughtful posts--a please to reply.
All your examples are examples of wrongs. The current health care legislation falls in that same category. I was taught growing up that two wrongs don't make a right. That applies just as much to government as it does to the individual. Just because the government can do something does not mean they shouldI do not see them as wrongs--but--nevermind. As for the rest.........................................................Agreed--that is why blind adherence to law without consideration of circumstances is the height of idiocy.The problem is each government we hire to run the nation for four years is free to try to impose itsversion or vision on the people. What we have here is factionalism rampant--an almost equally dividedpopulation on some key issues. My take is that Obama at last has decided to be the Captain of a shipthat will sail from the land of Reagan to a position left of center. Let us see how the elections 0f 2010play out. Old Turkish curse "may you live in interesting times".
Wally:Thank you for your kind and gentle responses. I have the feeling that you were a wonderful teacher.i am dismayed by all the hatred and invective accompanying this health plan, It reminds me of theabolitionist response to the Dredd Scott decision--anger transcending reason.I remain optimistic in that blood will not flow in the streets this time as it did in 1861.
Wally–I was grasping for examples. We will have to see how this wends it way through court. One other thought. I think I am correct when I say that most people who work openly and legally in this country arerequired to contribute (purchase) to SS up to a certain dollar point. Would you consider this applicable since we have no option except not to work which might seem agreeable, but is not practical in mostcases. In other words both work and the purchase are not options in the real world for most people.I am still grasping. How about automobiles. Now you might say that the ownership of one is an option,but given our geography, growth patterns and severe lack of public transportation, one could argue thatownership is a sine qua non in our society. I know of many places in this country where there is no option to a car except walking or riding on the back of an animal. This is true even in California--the automobile State. If you accept this then we open a door to a whole slew of mandates requiring you to purchaseinsurance, stickers, tags etc. .One final point. When I was in the Navy--many eons ago--we were required to purchase savings bonds.Now I expect that the word required is incorrect, but at the time, I being 17, the order was not seen asa gentle nudge by the Chief Petty Officer. I am sure you get the point. Oddly enough when I joined the Treasury department many years later the same game was played. We were cajoled (a second cousin ofrequired) into purchasing them as the local head bureaucrat wanted a 100 percent participation in his District. Needless to say, we all purchased--cowards all.A final oddity for you. Again, when I was in the Navy, we were required to attend divine services on Sunday--there were three options--Jewish, Catholic, Protestant. Was this legal as there was a collection plate.The paper has arrived--time to see what roadblocks will be erected today by the teeth gnashers--adieu.
General Welfare is a nice clause as it is elastic and can be stretched to meet one's perception of theresponsibilities of government. I told you it was all I had, but there may be a few more peripherals.I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws,rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes theGeneral Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.I have not even touched on the commerce clause because it is late and I am tired--Adieu.
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic, and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they will become part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more--you betcha.
The "wall of Social Justice" - what is that, and where does it mention that in our Constitution? I think this is a key difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives look to the Constitution for authority to act; liberals look to their own whims for authority to act.
Wall of Social Justice--Oh it is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. Also absent are the words Air Force, slavery and animal rights. However, it does have the phrase--general welfare--which I know is a bad phrase to cite, but it is all I have at the moment.
A possible explanation for Lincoln's fits of rage?
The 16th President of the United States took the pills in the 1850s to alleviate what one contemporary described as the ?cave of gloom? in which he lived. ... Scientists at the Royal Society of Chemistry, where the tests were carried out, believe the high mercury content in the pills is what caused Lincoln?s famous verbal and physical rages.
The little blue pills that sent Abraham Lincoln into a rageDoes this sound plausible or more like speculation?
Prozac? Did his gloom or the pills make him write in such a manner? More!
A possible explanation for Lincoln's fits of rage?
The 16th President of the United States took the pills in the 1850s to alleviate what one contemporary described as the ?cave of gloom? in which he lived. ... Scientists at the Royal Society of Chemistry, where the tests were carried out, believe the high mercury content in the pills is what caused Lincoln?s famous verbal and physical rages.
The little blue pills that sent Abraham Lincoln into a rageDoes this sound plausible or more like speculation?I wonder if he need Prozac? I also wonder if the pills helped him write in such a wonderful manner?
How will the Obama presidency be remembered? Two quotes immediately stick out."It's just going to be like Christmas...It's going to be great. You know, no worries (about) the bills. We are going to go ahead and pay our co-pay and be alright."http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/"I wont have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won't have to worry about paying my mortgage.. You know, If I help him, he's gonna help me."http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/11/obama_supporter_i_wont_have_to.phpThe latter one was mentioned during the Obama campaign, but both quotes are striking for the extremely high level of forward-looking expectations handed out by the federal government. Will these perceptions be satiated, or will the people saying them be let down?
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic,and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they willbecome part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more--you betcha.
