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OK, the poleis were always warring and arguing with each other for whatever reason, yet all Greeks worshipped the same gods. Now, there was a temple to Zeus at Olympia, one to Apollo at Delphi, and temples to Hera and Poseidon in Athens. Does this imply that each polis laid “claim” to that specific god? Like, did the Greeks in Delphi say to the Greeks in another polis, “OK, you all can worship Apollo if you want, but just realize that he is mostly our god”?I guess what I'm trying to say here is religion may have united the Greeks cultural, but it certainly didn't unite them politically.
It is my understanding that the city-states had patron deities much like the Catholic Church has patron saints. For example, St. Christopher is the Patron saint of Travelers and St. George is the Patron saint of soldiers.
The Greeks worshiped the gods that were most closely associated with their economies. Athens worshiped Poseidon because it was a seafaring city and Spartans worshiped Ares because they were a war like people. Zeus was of course valued equally because he was the father of gods and men.
Hmm, all my sources, textbooks, and professor say that Athena was the patron god of Athens.Just found this. which also goes along with what my professor said:
Both Athena and Poseidon wanted to be patron deity of Athens. To prove her worthiness for the honor, Athena caused an olive tree to spring up on the citadel of Athens, the Acropolis. Poseidon sought to outdo her by striking the ground with his trident and causing a spring of water to gush forth. But as he was god of the sea, the water was salty. Athena's gift to the Athenians was considered to be more useful, so she became the city's patron deity.
LINKThis is the case with most of deities, they'd fight with each other and the winner would be the patron god of that polis.It makes one wonder if this was one of the many motivations for war. Just wonder if any Greeks took the attittude "our patron god beat up your patron god, so that means we are better than you" (not that I'm implying religion was a motivation for war or anything. ::) )
Hmm, all my sources, textbooks, and professor say that Athena was the patron god of Athens.Just found this. which also goes along with what my professor said:
Both Athena and Poseidon wanted to be patron deity of Athens. To prove her worthiness for the honor, Athena caused an olive tree to spring up on the citadel of Athens, the Acropolis. Poseidon sought to outdo her by striking the ground with his trident and causing a spring of water to gush forth. But as he was god of the sea, the water was salty. Athena's gift to the Athenians was considered to be more useful, so she became the city's patron deity.
LINKThis is the case with most of deities, they'd fight with each other and the winner would be the patron god of that polis.It makes one wonder if this was one of the many motivations for war. Just wonder if any Greeks took the attittude "our patron god beat up your patron god, so that means we are better than you" (not that I'm implying religion was a motivation for war or anything. ::) )
Athena was the patron goddess of Athens, but she was not the only one. Poseidon, Hera, Zeus all had representation there.
Yes, all the god and goddesses were represented and worshipped in all of Greece. But you said Poseidon was the patron god of Athens and according to what I've learned that's incorrect.But that's beside the point.Do any of you think the fact that certain poleis had a patron god or two or three, and with knowing that mythological tradition states the gods tried to one-up themselves to be patron god of a particular polis, that that caused feelings of arrogance or of being better than other poleis and tensions and jealousies arose? (This is of course aside from the other reasons for war like fighting over land and whatnot)
Yes, all the god and goddesses were represented and worshipped in all of Greece. But you said Poseidon was the patron god of Athens and according to what I've learned that's incorrect.But that's beside the point.Do any of you think the fact that certain poleis had a patron god or two or three, and with knowing that mythological tradition states the gods tried to one-up themselves to be patron god of a particular polis, that that caused feelings of arrogance or of being better than other poleis and tensions and jealousies arose? (This is of course aside from the other reasons for war like fighting over land and whatnot)
I didn't say Poseidon was the "patron" god of Athens, but he was very important to them because of their economy, and there is more to Athens than just Athens (Delian League).And as to the second part of your post, the gods weren't that important to the people. Don't get wrapped up in the mythology. The gods were used as part of the civic religion for festivals and other social events. They prayed to them, but the Greeks didn't base their foreign policies on what gods they prayed to. Sailors prayed to Poseidon, and hunters prayed to Artemis or Apollo, and soldiers prayed to Athena and Ares. Brides prayed to Hera and Aphrodite, and everyone prayed to Zeus. Minerva was also important in Athens because of wisdom/knowledge. Remember Paul's visit to the Areopagus in Athens? Every god was represented including the "unknown god" that Paul proudly revealed the identity.
And as to the second part of your post, the gods weren't that important to the people.
I would disagree with that statement...but I would also state that I think I know what you probably meant. 🙂 The gods may not have been vitally important spiritually to the Greeks, but for Greek culture the gods meant quite a bit. We can state this with some certainty due to the lavishness placed on monuments to the gods, such as the Parthenon on the Acropolis. A civilization doesn't just build something like that, at such great expense, unless they value something that the gods provide. What did they provide? IIRC, the reason for Pericles' push to construct the Parthenon was to create a cultural centerpiece which would unite Athenians. For the Greeks, the gods were a means to and end, and the end was very important. Admittedly, you did say, "The gods were used as part of the civic religion for festivals and other social events." (so I realize I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know). But it probably bears saying anyway. And we can also see later on that the Romans felt the same way about their deities...they were big on ritual rather than on the substance of their religion.
And as to the second part of your post, the gods weren't that important to the people.
I would disagree with that statement...but I would also state that I think I know what you probably meant. 🙂 The gods may not have been vitally important spiritually to the Greeks, but for Greek culture the gods meant quite a bit.
Thank you, Phid! 🙂 And I agree with you that the gods were of vital importance to their daily lives and decisions. Also, not only the Greeks, but at least one world leader I can think of would seek answers from (at?) the Oracle at Delphi for various things, such as decisions for colonization and for war. I'm not "wrapped up" in the mythology, I just find the topic very fascinating both historical and culturally and wanted to discuss it. As you all probably are aware, the gods were given human values (jealousy, love, artistic talent, etc.) and didn't even some of the aristocrats think they were direct descendants of mythological beings or of humans of old who had contact with mythological beings? Just thinking logically here, this must have had at least some impact on their feelings of superiority over other city-states whose leaders were desendants of other gods and characters.
http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/ancient/ancient.htmHello all, I hope you are well.This is a great subject, for me mythology always turns to thoughts of ancients finding fossils of dinos and believing they were the cyclops, griffin, dragons etc.There was a Greek writer, whose name escapes me, darn it! I know this writer documented finds that were exhibited all over Greece. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it! Also, if anyone cares to opine, what is the signifigance of the sacrificial ritual in Ancient Greece? Was there human sacrifice?
Was there human sacrifice?
There's pretty solid evidence the Minoans did, not sure about any latter Greek society, although some say they did.I've only read bits and pieces out of it, but this book seems pretty good because the author stresses the use of caution when looking at the subject of human sacrifice in Greek history.
I was reading through this thread again and it raises an interesting point about whether Greek city-states were exclusive in their cult worship of particular gods. I know of nothing that would support such a claim about exclusivity. I did find a source which suggested exclusivity was not practiced in Greece, and it even mentioned that both Athens and Sparta shared a common patron deity – Athena.
Also, if the practice of Rome were any indicator of the way it was done in Greece, cities would have had a variety of different god-cults. Rome itself pointed back to Mars (father of Romulus and Remus), as well as Venus (mother of Aeneas), but of course dedicated perhaps its major temple to Capitoline Jupiter. So it seems based on this that god-cults and geographic regions in the ancient world were probably more fluid than exclusive and rigid.
