This post is mainly directed at nkuler but I would love to hear anybody's thoughts. What do you think of the claims that the Turks engaged in genocide against the Armenian minority in Turkey during the First World War, specifically during the fall and winter of 1915-1916? I know the official government position is that no genocide occurred and they simply deported an insurrectionary minority. Many bombasts of the post-modern sort claim that up to a million Armenians were killed although these numbers have never been substantiated.My own position is that what happened was more than deportations but less than outright genocide. It was more than deportation because entire towns and villages were cleared but less than genocide because I don't think the Turkish government wanted to kill the Armenians, they were just indifferent to their fate. Genocide implies an outright attempt to deliberately kill masses of people.I think there were legitimate fears on the part of the Turkish government that the Armenians would aid invading Russian forces. I also think that the measures taken were an unreasonable reaction to those fears. All in all I think it was a regrettable period of Turkey?s history but not the purposeful genocide that some would make it out to be. I also don?t think that Turkish silence helps in perceptions of what happened. I don?t think an apology is in order, just an acknowledgment. Silence makes it appear as though there really is something to hide.
I'll wait for nkular's comments first before I respond to some of your statements I have “issues” with. Primarily
but not the purposeful genocide that some would make it out to be.
I think 1.5 million dead Armenians and their families would disagree with this.Also there were a lot of parallels that one could compare to the Jewish Holocaust. Boycotting Armenian businesses and disarming Armenians come to mind as this also happened to the Jews of Nazi Germany.
I'll wait for nkular's comments first before I respond to some of your statements I have "issues" with. Primarily
but not the purposeful genocide that some would make it out to be.
I think 1.5 million dead Armenians and their families would disagree with this.
Notice I am not asking or positing what the Armenians think or thought but rather what a dispassionate observer would think. Of course, if you are run out of town or see members of your family killed you think otherwise, that is human nature. By that standard the claim that abortion is ok is absolutely right when made by a women that had an abortion because if anyone, she is in a position to have an opinion.
Also there were a lot of parallels that one could compare to the Jewish Holocaust. Boycotting Armenian businesses and disarming Armenians come to mind as this also happened to the Jews of Nazi Germany.
You are comparing Apples to Oranges here.In the several works I have read about the period I have never heard mention of a systematic, years-long pattern of discrimination against the Armenian minority within the Ottoman empire. they were treated like any other non-muslim part of the population. they were regarded as Dhimmi and taxed and treated as such. the Armenians were not singled out for special treatment until the outbreak of World War I. Do you have sources for the claim that they were treated exceptionally bad by the Ottoman authorities?
Well, as you all know this is a very sensitive and lenghty subject. More so for me because my grandmother was a Christian Armenian who converted to Islam (out of her own free will) when she married my Grandfather. I'll say the last thing first; No, I do not believe a genocide in the legal sense of the word occured against the Armenians during or after WW1. I'll explain my reasoning later but first I have to state something about the number of Armenians skiguy cited above;- Stalin famously said 1 death is a tragedy 1000000 is statistics. Now I don't intend to diminish the enormity of human suffering by saying there were not 1.5 million Armenians killed but none of the official records of the time can verify such number. According to the Ottoman official records 413.067 people were deported 56.610 of which died, the number of people that were deported is reported as 600.000 in the Catholic Encyclopedia and according to the official letter of the American Consul JB Jackson the number of Armenians subject to deportation was 486.000.Keep in mind that the total number of Armenians living in what was then the Ottoman Empire was roughly 1.5 million. Again the number of dead being 50.000 or even 5 instead of 1.5 million doesn't diminish the humanitarian tragedy but let's try to keep it within the proven facts.Article 2 of 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."Now, why do I think that regrettable episode was technically not a genocide. In 1915 the Ottoman Empire was in utter turmoil, It had just lost the Great War, it was under occupation and there was rebellion all over the empire. The idea of nationalism had come to the empire and the Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Romanians, Armenians etc. all had recently gained or were still struggling for their independance. All of these nations had the backing of one of the western powers or Russia. The Armenians had received support for their independance cause from both France (directly) and Russia (indirectly). Scout mentions the "legitimate fears" the government had about the Armenians fighting with the Russians against the Empire. Actually these were not "legitimate fears" but actual happenings. There are records of Armenians volunteering with the Russian Army as well as Armenians forming armed gangs in rural areas which acted in coordination with the Russian army. There are also records Armenian legions who fought under the French flag.I can understand the Armenians longing for independance, they are an ancient and proud people and when the opportunity presented itself they alligned themselves with the enemies of their former rulers. For me this is perfectly understandable. What I can't understand is how can anyone expect the Ottoman empire to defend itself from an Armenian insurrection without harming its Armenian subjects? There was no "intent to destroy the Armenians" but an intent to defend the country. The Armenians living in the western part of the empire were left unmolested and continued to live as equal citizens. As I said, among these was the family of my grandmother. However in the east as a result of the abovementioned cooperation with the Russians and later with the French, the Armenian population was seen as a threat to national security and deported. I accept that during these deportations there were probably some random killings and such, but I really do not believe that there was an intent to rid the Empire of Armenians at any time. If the Ottoman Empire's actions were to be accepted as genocide; then off the top of my head; I think putting Japanese in concentration camps in WW2, the French actions in Algeria, Italian actions in Libya should also be considered genocide.Scout, with respect to your question about the Turkish Governments silence: They really are not that silent but just can't get any airtime, my guess is western media just doesn't like to be percieved as deniers. And face it, Turkey is not a popular country in the west , we are seen as barbarian, quazi-civilized muslims who should be kept at arms lenght. You prefer us to the afghans and taliban but that's about it. Look, I am not a nationalist and I did not come to this forum to blindly defend "my country". But I can not and will not ever compromise my views to be accepted, here or anywhere else. I realise the abovementioned views will be unpopular, maybe even offensive to some, but this is what I believe to have happened.
I admit my numbers come from a probably very biased source (www.armenian-genocide.org). However, there are many original documents scanned. One thing I find what you say as interesting (controversial?) is your definition of genocide. IF the Ottomans had the intent to eliminate an ethnic population, than that is considered genocide according to the UN. The big question here is WAS THIS THEIR INTENTION? Also, please clarify the number killed. Is this directly killed by whatever method used or are you not including those who starved in the concentration over the next few years?
You are comparing Apples to Oranges here.
scout, why is this? All I'm I'm trying to point out are the methods used for genocides. If it happened exactly the same way as what the Germans did to the Jews, then it needs to be studied/analyzed. Granted the Turks didn't build ovens (as far as I know) that could kill 10,000 a day, but a genocide is a genocide. I don't know. International law states that genocide has to be an intent, so I still think this was a purposeful, methodical intent to eliminate the Armenian population as this document states (accuses).I'm not trying to argue or anything neither am I anti-Turk or anti-Ottoman. I just, as you stated, am trying to view the facts for what they are.
Ski,I dont believe it was a Genocide and it certainly was not an attempt to exterminate an ethnic group. I find myself very much in agreement with nkuler on this point. You are talking from emotion and using emotional numbers and statements. I get that you believe it is a genocide, I disagree. I have never heard that the Armenians were put into camps, they were kicked into the desert along the Iraqi border and left with no supplies. I repeat, there is no evidence of a systematic attempt to exterminate the Armenian people as an entire ethnic group, therefore the comparison with the Jews, Roma, and others deemed undesirable does not really apply. I dont think the Turks were rounding people up and shipping them off to be killed.Nkuler,Perhaps you are right in that the Western Media is suppressing the views of the Turkish Government. I have certainly only ever heard tha the Government claims it did not happen. I would not be surprised if the media in the west were ignoring Turkish discussion of the subject. I will have to look it up but I believe Keegan specifically mentions that the Turkish Government has erected a wall of silence regarding the Armenians. But then again, I have lost a lot of respect for Keegan and his level of analysis in the last few years.I also know that there were armed bands of Amrenians actively supporting the Russians. This is one of the reasons why I say that the Turks overreacted. They had reasons for what happened. the argument more seems to be whether the Turkish government was justified in its actions. It is obvious that the Ottoman government thought they were justified but then rethought their policies within a few months. One of the most noteworthy things about the whole episode is how short the time frame when these things happened was. Armenian repression was no long term policy as soon as the authorities percieved a lessening of the Armenian threat the repression eased considerably.
Ski,Come on! Basing a view on a cite called armenian genocide is tantamount to basing an opinion on a site called http://www.tallarmeniantale.com. Both would be unreliable to say the least. I'm not sure of the exact number of dead but I'm sure it cannot possibly be 1.5 million. There are conflicting accounts from 50 thousand to 500 thousand. I'd guess it's probably something in the middle. Scout, Ski,As far as I know there was no concentration camps, or mass killings or boycott of Armenian business. I'm sure that there was nothing of the sort in western anatolia. But of course there was a mistrust of armenians in the general population, as I said because of the insurrection. I did not mention this in my original post because I do not believe in the "eye for an eye" but what seems unbelievable to me is that in the west most of the people think that one day out of the blue the infidel Turks decided to kill a nation, with whom they had been neigbors with for nearly a millenium, because they were Christian. This is mostly due to the very efficient Armenian propaganda but its just silly to believe this. The Armenians had been subjects of the Empire for more than 500 years, noone forced them to change their religion and noone killed them because of it. The deaths that occurred in 1915 were directly because of the Armenian rebellion for independance. Was England gulity of genocide when it killed Americans in the colonies? No, it was trying to stem a rebellion.Over the years this issue has become almost like the glue that holds Armenians together in national unity. So they see denying the "Armenian Genocide" as a personal attack on themselves. Scout,Until about 20-25 years ago there was a "wall of silence" around this subject and almost all other subjects in Turkey. But in recent years there have been many attempts made by the government to appease the Armenians. They have repeatedly said that this is not a political issue but a historical one, therefore a team of historians from both sides and impartial ones should conduct research and share their conclusions. They have offered to open up all of the archives of the Republic and the Ottoman empire. But the Armenians have repeatedly refused such offers. They have created themselves the ultimate enemy and they don't want it to go away. The interesting thing is, it's not the Armenians in Armenia that are the most hardline on the subject. They are surprisingly open to discussion. But it's usually the rich Armenians living mostly in California and the South of France that cry "treason" everytime an Armenian official comes in to contact with a Turkish official. oh and be careful about stating your views about the "genocide" in Switzerland, the Swiss passed a law which made the denial of Armenian Genocide a crime!If you're really interested in the other side of the story try to look up Justin McCarthy, Bernard Lewis, Heath Lowry, Erich Feigl or Guenter Lewy.
But the Armenians have repeatedly refused such offers. They have created themselves the ultimate enemy and they don't want it to go away.
Sounds like the expats have well and truly bought into the notion of perpetual Victimhood. Not surprising if they are clustered in California and France. Amazingly the Jewish people have seemed to accept the German apologies and attempts at reconciliation for the Holocaust. It is only a small fringe group that holds the Germans a people responsible and isn't that the same thing the Nazis did in reverse. Seems to me that treating it like history and trying to find answers is a better way of dealing with it than throwing recriminations. Isnt it more mature to try and ensure something similar is not repeated than to expend endless effort casting blame while not moving on? The blacks in America have made an industry out of race because of slavery and it is not something they will willingly give up, they are another group that has embraced victimhood and refuses to do anything positive.I think I have read a piece by Justin McCarthy, at least the name sounds familiar.I agree that scholarship, at least in the west, has not been objective when talking about the issue. I also knew it was controversial which is why I asked for your input. I guessed that you would have more knowledge about it. The Armenian insurrection/genocide/label of choice is like the Rape of Nanking in that it is only incompletely mentioned in western scholarship if at all. Just another area where western scholars have not devoted enough energy to really answering questions and thus mistruths and myths get passed off as facts.
No, scout, I'm not looking at this emotionally as I have absolutely no emotional ties to this. I'm just trying to look at it factually.
they were kicked into the desert along the Iraqi border and left with no supplies. I repeat, there is no evidence of a systematic attempt to exterminate the Armenian people as an entire ethnic group, therefore the comparison with the Jews, Roma, and others deemed undesirable does not really apply. I dont think the Turks were rounding people up and shipping them off to be killed.
Then for what other reason were they shipping them into a desert? That's what I mean by intent and which I think at this point, barring any real damning evidence, can never be proven. Did they deport them to a basically uninhabitable place knowing that this would kill them or were they doing this "just" to deport them? If their intent was to NOT kill them, the Armenians would probably have faired better in concentration camps.
Both would be unreliable to say the least.
I don't disagree, but two points I'd make about a website like this and others that are similar: original documentation has been gathered in one place AND where else are we going to get our information? Sorry, they only things I see out there are either complete denial or complete "yes it was a genocide". There really isn't anything in the middle.Population question, nkuler, you keep saying it cannot possibly be 1.5 mill. but some sources say the Armenian population in the whole Empire was something like 2 mill. IF (note I say if) 2/3 of the population were killed wouldn't that put it near the 1.5 number?
Also, biased may not necessarily mean unreliable as long as the reader knows it biased. Yes, they may have gathered all evidence to prove or try to prove their case, but there are still letters from American, British, and German ambassadors that can't or shouldn't be dismissed.
Also, biased may not necessarily mean unreliable as long as the reader knows it biased. Yes, they may have gathered all evidence to prove or try to prove their case, but there are still letters from American, British, and German ambassadors that can't or shouldn't be dismissed.
I'm not saying the website as a whole is unreliable I'm just saying the conlusions and the hearsay presented as facts (for example the 1.5 millon killed) are unreliable. If you can sift through those than those websites can be quite useful.With respect to the population question. I just looked up the 1914 census numbers (I'll put a link but it's in Turkish) and it says in total 1.219.323 Armenians lived in the Empire.http://www.tsk.tr/8_TARIHTEN_KESITLER/8_1_Ermeni_Sorunu/konular/ermeni_faaliyetleri_pdf/Arsiv_Belgeleriyle_Ermeni_Faaliyetleri_Cilt_1.pdf
they were kicked into the desert along the Iraqi border and left with no supplies. I repeat, there is no evidence of a systematic attempt to exterminate the Armenian people as an entire ethnic group, therefore the comparison with the Jews, Roma, and others deemed undesirable does not really apply. I dont think the Turks were rounding people up and shipping them off to be killed.
Then for what other reason were they shipping them into a desert? That's what I mean by intent and which I think at this point, barring any real damning evidence, can never be proven. Did they deport them to a basically uninhabitable place knowing that this would kill them or were they doing this "just" to deport them? If their intent was to NOT kill them, the Armenians would probably have faired better in concentration camps.
I dont think the intent was to kill them, I think the Turks just did not much care one way or the other if they survived or not. The Turks were not going to divert supplies from their war effort to help what they considered a bunch of traitors. As it is, Iraq is not uninhabited now nor was it then. The word desert conjures up images of tumbleweeds and no water. I will tell you personally that there is water in the desert, there are also Armenian Christians there and the Kurds. The Kurds didn't like Turks any better then and I would have to research it for cites but I believe they offered the Armenians assistance as well. If for no other reason than the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" type of thing.You know I dont like labels and genocide is one of those labels that is thrown around too easily. It has lost its meaning for me because it is overused. I still don't think this was genocide; tragic and regrettable yes, genocide no.
I also wouldnt classify Northern Iraq as true desert it is more like the High Desert of New Mexico than blowing sand dunes, most of the Anatolian plateau is like that. Think of Western Anatolia as being similar to Central Texas around San ANtonio and Eastern Anatolia being El Paso, Las Cruces, New Mexico and it gives you an idea of the Terrain. The Turkish Coast is very similar to Baja California only without as many Mexicans and way more interesting ruins.
I agree it's overused (Darfur is NOT genocide), but I think there are some instances where people are afraid to use that word for whatever reason.
As it is, Iraq is not uninhabited now nor was it then.
Just thinking logically here (not emotionally), if people who've never lived in the desert were suddenly forced to march there with no supplies, no known allies, and no weapons, (in other words, unihabitable) isn't it fairly likely they are going to die?