Archaeologists have announced that they have discovered what they claim is the birthplace of the Roman Emperor Vespasian, the first of the “Five Good Emperors”. Birthplace of Roman emperor found in Italy The next question is what is the significance of knowing what house he was born in is. Arent his acts while emperor more significant than the house where he soiled his diapers? I guess it is kind of neat to know but not important in the wider historical scheme of things.
Vespasian was not the first of the five good emperors. Those would be Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus Pius, and Marcus Aurelius.
what is the significance of knowing what house he was born in is. Arent his acts while emperor more significant than the house where he soiled his diapers?
Perhaps, but don't you think it was important to the people of the Roman Empire to know or be very curious as to where their "gods" were born? Also, I would imagine there had to be some type of hereditary legitimacy. So in that aspect it was important to know where an emperor was born. In order to prove who his parents were, one needs to know where he was born. What if it was found he was born in Africa or Syria? Then his lineage would be in question.
As ski said, it may have had importance as the birthplace of a deified Vespasian. Romans may have traveled there for worship after his death and it could therefore provide us more insights into Roman social and religious customs. In this sense it is important for its hermeneutic importance (i.e. how people viewed it through time) rather than its importance as Vespasian's birthplace at the exact year A.D. 6. The article mentioned a few things I wondered about. I didn't understand how a "family of low-tier country nobility" would have owned a "150,000-square-feet (14,000-square-meter) complex...at the center of an ancient village". I still am not clear how such a family of that social status could own one so large, but I'm presuming it was a working, primary income villa rustica rather than a weekend-getaway villa, the kind of which became popular among Roman elites.
Actually, I wonder if this was not one of those modern Schliemann examples of an archaeologist making a find and attributing it to the most famous source even when the facts are inconclusive about it. From the sound of the story the villa could have belonged to someone else.
Thanks for the correction about the “good emperors” I got my emperors mixed up. As to imperial lineage werent their several emperors who were not born in the Roman Heartland? I always thought the Romans were the original cosmopolitans when it came to place of birth.Claudius was born in GaulTrajan was born in Hispania BaeticaHadrian was also born in Hispania BaeticaSeptimius Severus was born in AfricaCaracalla was born in GaulMacrinus and Diadumenian were born in CaesareaElagabalus was born in SyriaMaximinus Thrax was born in ThracePhilip the Arab was born in SyriaDecius was born in Lower PannoniaAemilianus was born in AfricaAurelian was born in Sirmium in PannoniaThis names just a few. The full list is here. Of course the vast majority of Roman emperors were born on the Italian peninsula and many were deified after death. But wasnt this deification more honorary than anything. I think it was even Vespasian who is said to have remarked that "I do believe I am becoming a god" as his last words. Lastly, given the way many emperors were elevated I dont think their lineage was of as much concern as their competence to hold the office and run the ship of state.
scout, I meant if he claimed to be born in a particular place yet it was found out he wasn't, that could cause problems.
But wasnt this deification more honorary than anything.
I don't think so. It was part of their 'being' as an emperor as well as the state religion of Rome. I think the more honorary traditions were when members of the emperors family were deified. That seemed more like a tradition to follow than an actual religion though (of course their were exceptions). If I'm not mistaken, all the Julio-Claudian family was deified and I think that was part of the religion, but I don't know if those who followed had the same prominence.
I read a piece recently that was very specific about Augustus being adamant about resisting personal deification. He was not officially deified until after his death despite the fact that cults devoted to his worship sprang up during his reign.
I think Augustus was the only one though. My textbook says he never declared himself anything, he let others do that. Other emperors were a little more egotistical.I'll try to paraphrase something about the Pantheon, so hopefully I'll still be clear.Hadrian was into one of the sun gods (forgot the specific name. Helios I think). He built the dome of the Pantheon in order to symbolize his close intimacy to Helios and to the father of the sun gods, Zeus. Many books use the word symbolism, but I think it was much more than that. It was a real belief of his and probably many of his people. It was for a similar reason he completed the temple of Zeus Olympios in Athens. I think many authors underemphasize the importance of religion to the Romans. I use the massive number of temples and other religiously significant monuments as evidence that religion was extremely important.
Wasnt it Voltaire that said something like “religion is mere tonic to the masses”? I find it hard to believe that the Roman elites took their religion so seriously at the end of the Republic. Especially so given the amount of religious assimilation they engaged in. They had cults to just about every god and pantheon in the Known world in Rome. I think they cynically used the state religion to further political goals. It is clear from early imperial history that Caesar and Augustus at least understood the power and influence they got from holding high religious office.
Wasnt it Voltaire that said something like "religion is mere tonic to the masses"? I find it hard to believe that the Roman elites took their religion so seriously at the end of the Republic. Especially so given the amount of religious assimilation they engaged in. They had cults to just about every god and pantheon in the Known world in Rome. I think they cynically used the state religion to further political goals. It is clear from early imperial history that Caesar and Augustus at least understood the power and influence they got from holding high religious office.
I think your original question about deification being an "honorary" thing, and then the subsequent discussion bring up larger issues. Did Romans actually believe in Roman gods? Probably not completely but they do seem to have been superstitious. They were heavily into ritual which had to be done just right in order to "work". They respected that which was "old" and despised that which was "new". As a professor mentioned, this is why the Romans despised Christianity but not a non-pagan religion like Judaism (it was never the case that a person could be put to death for publicly stating he/she was a Jew, but one could if one stated he/she was a Christian).I know there were temples to various emperors in the Roman Forum area, including the temple to Augustus, and I think temples to Trajan and a few others. I know that after deification, at least one emperor used it as a means to claim that he was the "son" of a god so he had greater authority.I can't remember the exact details, but I recall that in one of Plutarch's texts on the history of Rome it was acknowledged how important religion was as a means of keeping society together. It think the implication was that even though the Roman religion was not "true", it was still very useful.
Well, I definitely disagree with Voltaire and also Marx who said religion is the opiate of the masses. I have no doubt humans have used religion for selfish or financial reasons or to control people, but I almost have no doubt religion was important to the common people otherwise the emperors and other rulers of classical civilization wouldn't have built all these temples and monuments for the people.
Well, I definitely disagree with Voltaire and also Marx who said religion is the opiate of the masses. I have no doubt humans have used religion for selfish or financial reasons or to control people, but I almost have no doubt religion was important to the common people otherwise the emperors and other rulers of classical civilization wouldn't have built all these temples and monuments for the people.
If you read my previous statement clearly I am implying that the majority of people took their religion seriously and truly believed. I just get the impression that those at the top used religion, especially the state religion, as a tool to control the majority. I am not making a statement about the religions truth or correctness. Any fool can see that religious belief and its need for conformity are powerful forces for societal control when used by cynical people. I seriously doubt whether the Borgia popes believed in the trinity, I also think Luther made some excellent points when he raged against abuses within the church. I rememeber being shocked a few years ago when I was in Rome and discovered that you can still purchase absolution in some of the 100's of churches in Rome. I thought that practice had ended centuries ago.
If you read my previous statement clearly I am implying that the majority of people took their religion seriously and truly believed. I just get the impression that those at the top used religion, especially the state religion, as a tool to control the majority. I am not making a statement about the religions truth or correctness. Any fool can see that religious belief and its need for conformity are powerful forces for societal control when used by cynical people.
Are we even sure that the majority were real believers in their religion? I'm sure we'd be able to find the answer easily enough but I'm just not sure about it right now. Incidentally, Donnie shed some light on belief in Greek religion a while back in a thread:
I rememeber being shocked a few years ago when I was in Rome and discovered that you can still purchase absolution in some of the 100's of churches in Rome. I thought that practice had ended centuries ago.
Honestly, I think that you must have either misunderstood what you saw being offered or it was done by some underhanded con artist who was trying to make money. Actually, I don't think that one could ever "purchase absolution" within the Catholic faith even during the 16th century....I think the donation of money was linked more to the penance involved, not to absolution itself (unless it involved abuses done by individuals who were doing this on their own accord).
I just get the impression that those at the top used religion, especially the state religion, as a tool to control the majority.
I don't think they could have used religion to do that and I get a different impression in that the rulers accepted the individual cults and just adopted them as part of the official religion, but still keeping their identity. I think they kept control by laws and a military that assured the laws were followed.
Incidentally, Donnie shed some light on belief in Greek religion a while back in a thread:
Yes, Donnie did a great job explaining it. You can see how mythology was often geographical. I think most people did believe in religion but not everyone believed the same. Wasn't Apollo stronger to some than to others?