To absorb (immigrants or a culturally distinct group) into the prevailing culture.Using this definition, I would be pleased to share some thoughts with you as I suspect I know the reasonfor your concern. Let us begin at the beginning. When we became the United States in 1789 we had many advantages not the least of which was that the former colonies--now states--were, generally speaking,homogeneous which made assimilation into the new political entity much less difficult than it would have beenhad we not been.I am doing this off the top of my head so I might miss a few points--please bear with me. As I recall, wehad lots of white colonist from England, Ireland, Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, Scotland, France and a few more I do not remember. Most, if not all of these, former colonial people were Christians of one stripe oranother and except for a few instances religion was not an obstacle to assimilation. Catholics were feared but not excluded.Language too was not a sore point--English was the lingua franca of the colonies and remained the same under the new government. Many people were bilingual, but if you wished to participate in the life of thenation , knowing English was essential--one simply learned it.Now there were some people living here who were not expected to assimilate--black people being the most obvious example although Indians and swarthy people also were not expected and/ or desired to befully assimilated. When I was a child we had this little ditty--perhaps you have heard it:If you are red why aint you deadIf you are brown you can hang aroundIf you are black--get backIf you are yellow you are a bad fellowIf you are white you are all rightFrom 1789 till today people have come to our shores for a variety of reasons mostly seeking political andeconomic freedom and opportunity. For many years assimilation was not a problem because there werepockets of people living in places that were isolated and differences were tolerated. With the coming of the telegraph, schools, railroads and immigration from places other than the traditional areas of Europe someproblems began to develop. Universal communication became necessary in the army, the schools and incommercial ventures and reading became a skill that was required for social mobility.Again there were exceptions. In the vast territories gained by the victory with Mexico there were many who spoke only Spanish or Indian dialects--no matter--they were not yet important to the nation and would beleft to themselves for many decades. There were also the Chinese who were admittedly human, but not as human as we were and certainly not a group of people we wanted to assimilate--ergo--Chinatowns--sort of 19th Century ghettos.Xenonophobia was always with us, but reached new heights in 1917. Dachunds were called weiner dogs, sauerkraut became liberty cabbage and in the town where I grew up The German-American savingsbank became The Liberty Bank! The hordes of immigrants that poured into the US from Southern andEastern Europe from after the Civil War until 1924 were very different with odd costumes, customs, languages and religions. It is a remarkable fact that for the most part the children of these immigrantswere Americanized within one generation due to schools and the wonderful attractions of urban America.The kids learned from other kids and taught their parents. They dropped the hyphen and became Americans even though they kept many of the customs of their parents' homeland. This will happen again, but as we are now segregated by income in our housing it might be more difficult.When I grew up in the 1950's I lived among people that were all white, mostly Irish and mostly Catholic. I never knew a Jew and remember only 1 Polish family and 1 italian family on the whole street which was a half mile long. We were really assimilated. Three wars had worked their magic and being an American was the best thing to be in the whole world. We were the good guys and everybody wanted to come here. I never spoke to a black until I went into the Navy and never knew a Jew until college.There were still pockets of people who had chosen or been denied assimilation. Blacks and Hispanicswere among these groups and both tended to hold on to aspects of their culture that proper folks saw as being inappropriate. Blacks had a much more liberal attitude toward unmarried mothers and a casualattitude toward law enforcement. Hispanics had a great emphasis on the family and saw no real need tolearn English as they did not need it unless they went to school and sometimes not even then. In somecases the Hispanics rejected parts of the major culture in favor of their own which they considered morally or ethically superior. Many Asians are now here as a result of wars or political decisions made in Washington. Their academic excellence is well documented, but often they learn English and still retain theculture of their native land which in the case of some include arranged marriages. Now we have the Moslems a religion which most Americans could not explain to you if you gave them a goldpiece. They too comein many guises--as Asiatics, as Arabs, as Turks, as Persians, from Pakistan and from islands in the Pacific. Many of them do not want to assimilate while others have determined that we do not want them to do so. They are too different, worship different Gods , look and dress oddly and treat their women in ways we consider absurd.Now all this is prelude. You want people who come to live here to become Americans as you define the term.This may require that they give up their peculiar customs such as unique food, dress, relations between the sexes and child rearing techniques in order to blend into our homogenized culture where behavior ispredictable, respectful and acceptable. Fear not--this will happen although it may take a lot longer than you would like. The solution is in the kids. Once they learn that Dad is not the font of all wisdom and in factis often dead wrong, they will make their own choices and their own decisions. Swarthy Mustapha willdate and marry Patricia Higgins and they will work out their differences by themselves. Their kids willlearn English and gradually soccer will be replaced by football although middle east dishes will continue tobe served for another generation or two. English will become the only language spoken once grandpa has gone to PARADISE and American culture will prevail. Assimilation will happen and will do so withoutgovernment pressure. Bilingual schools will fade away and all will be as it was. We just tried to absorb too much in too short a period of time. We are comfortable with what we know and uncomfortable with what we do not know. Be patient and ignore those who shout that there is panic in diversity.I asked my grandchild--age 15--whether inter-racial dating and interpersonal relations were of any concern in her high school. She looked at me oddly--as though I was from Mars--and said : "Grandpa--race isirrelevant." I thought that was a great answer and I have great hope for this country. We will never be a melting pot--thank heavens--but to Use Wally's mentor--Carl Degler--we will always be a salad bowlwith lots of pieces--different--tasty and wonderful. America--a great place to live!WillyD
Now all this is prelude. You want people who come to live here to become Americans as you define the term.This may require that they give up their peculiar customs such as unique food, dress, relations between the sexes and child rearing techniques in order to blend into our homogenized culture where behavior is predictable, respectful and acceptable. Fear not--this will happen although it may take a lot longer than you would like. The solution is in the kids. Once they learn that Dad is not the font of all wisdom and in fact is often dead wrong, they will make their own choices and their own decisions. Swarthy Mustapha will date and marry Patricia Higgins and they will work out their differences by themselves. Their kids will learn English and gradually soccer will be replaced by football although middle east dishes will continue to be served for another generation or two. English will become the only language spoken once grandpa has gone to PARADISE and American culture will prevail. Assimilation will happen and will do so without government pressure. Bilingual schools will fade away and all will be as it was. We just tried to absorb too much in too short a period of time. We are comfortable with what we know and uncomfortable with what we do not know. Be patient and ignore those who shout that there is panic in diversity.
Sorry it has taken me so long to answer, I wanted to read it and then take some time to think this over before I answered.
You want people who come to live here to become Americans as you define the term.
Wrong, I do not want people to become Americans as I define it. I want them t learn the language and get on with their lives without saying they are somehow special because they were not born in America. I do not want nor think immigrants should give up their native foods, clothes, habits, or customs except in cases where those things clearly are against American law. Honor killings and female circumcision are two practices that come immediately to mind as being incompatible with life in America.I do not advocate assimilation, which implies that they forget or lose their origins but integration, which means they can take an active part in communal life because they speak the language. If America were truly assimilated there would only be one religion, and no one would remember their cultural heritage. It is patently obvious that is not the case.I wish I could be as confidant as you that the diversity push will fade away, somehow, I cannot.
So–it appears we agree on much. My confidence is born of optimism which often prevents a realistic appraisal of a situation–you Know–rose colored glasses. I agree about the language, but appreciate thedifficulty and reluctance of older people to embrace a new one. Oftimes it is very hard. Fromexperience I know that sometimes it is just impossible to get your mouth parts in the right place to make the right sounds and then there is the comfort factor; we don't like people to laugh at us. My wife doesGerman and I do a couple other languages and we all know certain words and syntactical oddities than defy our efforts to produce them smoothly use them with panache.Your comment about customs is interesting and I am of two minds about it--the Liberal curse. To me,female circumcision is horrible to contemplate, but I understand the cultural imperative that wouldlead a society to adopt such a practice. To a father raised in a Moslem county, the purity of his daughter is more than just a religious concern as it deals with is duty as the family head and his honor as a man. In some ways it is akin to an old Italian practice whereby a man, who was unfortunate enough to havea wife who cheated on him, was expected to kill the other man to maintain his honor. If he did not doso, the men of the village held him in contempt and made his life miserable. Obviously we cannot havethis sort of thing happening here, but you can see how it might cause mental anguish for the wrongedhusband.One final example and I will get off this. I am very glad I did not live in Europe when dueling was commonplace. The thought that I would have to defend myself from a guy who wished to stick a big blade in me because of some imagined insult is most discomforting. Yet--that was the custom and if Idid not follow the script I would be dishonored.I was going to mention American Indian practices--to them we are the immigrants and the Mormons present an interesting home grown deviation from the marriage norms, but you get the idea. I seeit is 10:30 and in my middle class household that means it is time to eat--it is our custom.Guten TagWILLYD
....Wrong, I do not want people to become Americans as I define it. I want them t learn the language and get on with their lives without saying they are somehow special because they were not born in America. I do not want nor think immigrants should give up their native foods, clothes, habits, or customs except in cases where those things clearly are against American law. Honor killings and female circumcision are two practices that come immediately to mind as being incompatible with life in America.I do not advocate assimilation, which implies that they forget or lose their origins but integration, which means they can take an active part in communal life because they speak the language. If America were truly assimilated there would only be one religion, and no one would remember their cultural heritage. It is patently obvious that is not the case.I wish I could be as confidant as you that the diversity push will fade away, somehow, I cannot.
This is the crux of the salad bowl idea from Degler... the dressing, if you will, is the Constitution and the republican nature of our system. Assimilation isn't the dirty word many deem it today... Ilearned it was what scout calls integration, a term that was more likely to get negative feedback, when I was in school, than assimilation. The immigrant just applied out ways over theirs rather than giving too much up. I agree on those things that you mention being incompatable with lfe here, and there are others I'm sure.
....I was going to mention American Indian practices--to them we are the immigrants and the Mormons present an interesting home grown deviation from the marriage norms, but you get the idea. I seeit is 10:30 and in my middle class household that means it is time to eat--it is our custom.
Yes some things are tradition in our home. However, when they go beyond the societal norm in the new larger society then they will be dealt with... often is hidden and not too outrageous they are ignored... might be avoided or shuned, if too over the top they will be handled on a personal level or legally. Culture will root out the aburations (or accept them) as it sees fit. When you eat dinner is of little import to the vast majority... if you kill the neighbor because his dog dishonored you front gate or marry all your sisters-in-law to get to use the commuter lane... those are quite another matter.
Wally:Societal norms evolve quite rapidly. Consider this. When I was a young man a girl having a child out of wedlock was disgraced as was her whole family and the child was branded for life.Today--well you know. When I was a young man only service men and strumpets got tattoos. Today--well you know.When I was a young man TV was as clean as a hound's tooth. Today--well you know.
Willy, the big difference between you and I is that you apparently shrug your shoulders and say it cannot be changed so must be accepted and I do not. I don't have a problem with immigrants, I am the child of one(my mother). I have a problem with immigrants that come and demand I change for their benefit. I live in Germany and speak German, I don't demand that Germans speak English for me. That is the crux of what I am trying to get at.Immigration is part of what made America great, but if immigrants stay isolated because of language differences they foster weakness instead of strength. That is the main reason I oppose bilingual education. It may fade away as you say but what about the kids that don't learn English because they were not forced to out of some desire to foster "diversity"? Are they not going to be at a disadvantage later if the pendulum does indeed swing the other way? There will be lots of disadvantaged people sacrificed to this left-wing ideal who will be stuck on the fringes of society because of a misguided ideal. If they want to speak Spanish stay in Mexico, or Guatemala. If you live in America learn English; it really is that simple. Nobody is advocating they jettison their culture, just that try to fit into our society while retaining their culture as well.
Aeth,I am shocked you agree with me on something again.:o Maybe I am just persuasive and should launch a second career as an ideologue? On second thought, I will just try to teach history instead.
Willy, the big difference between you and I is that you apparently shrug your shoulders and say it cannot be changed so must be accepted and I do not. I don't have a problem with immigrants, I am the child of one(my mother). I have a problem with immigrants that come and demand I change for their benefit. I live in Germany and speak German, I don't demand that Germans speak English for me. That is the crux of what I am trying to get at.Immigration is part of what made America great, but if immigrants stay isolated because of language differences they foster weakness instead of strength. That is the main reason I oppose bilingual education. It may fade away as you say but what about the kids that don't learn English because they were not forced to out of some desire to foster "diversity"? Are they not going to be at a disadvantage later if the pendulum does indeed swing the other way? There will be lots of disadvantaged people sacrificed to this left-wing ideal who will be stuck on the fringes of society because of a misguided ideal. If they want to speak Spanish stay in Mexico, or Guatemala. If you live in America learn English; it really is that simple. Nobody is advocating they jettison their culture, just that try to fit into our society while retaining their culture as well.? Last Edit: Today at 01:14:48 PM by scout1067 ? Report to moderator Logged
No No No What I say is that you are making a problem much bigger than it is. We are all thechildren of immigrants. You are upset about bi-lingual education--forget about it. Have confidence in History. Kids learn English on the street effortlessly--without homework. They do so because they have to and because they want to. The days of ethnic isolation in America are over and pockets will exist or spring up as new groups arrive--but they are short -termers--they will wither away. The number of youngpeople who are forced or choose to linguistically isolate themselves would seem to be very small indeed. A new arrival from Guatemala may never learn correct English, but we know his kids will and they willlearn it in the playground--not the classroom. Most people who speak English as a native language could not tell you what the subjunctive imperfect tense was if you offered them an apple streudel.See--we agree in principle.
No, in fact we don't. The diversity crowd aims to discourage the exact things you are talking about. If it is up to them the little kid from Guatemala wont be playing with people that speak English, they will play with other little Spanish speakers and not learn English at all. That is the purpose of bilingual education to make it so they done need to speak English to go to school or indeed at all. If you don't learn Spanish or whatever language the immigrants speak YOU are the bigot, not them for failing to learn the language of the country in which they live.I challenge you to name another major nation that does not require immigrants to learn its native tongue? I know Germany and most EU countries do, it is part of the immigration package. In Germany you have 2 years to learn German or be deported and I have no problem with that policy at all.
In the past immigrants, for the most part, were here to stay and so cut most all the ties with the old country… a trip back was rare and expensive. Many of the immigrants today do not fit this prototype; they are here to make some money which they send, or take, home regularly. [Hint: they come from places that are closer and transportation is easier and less costly….] Since they don't make that clean cut they are less likely to sweat learning the language and culture that previous immigrants; they can jsut go home if it gets too bad. While I'm not sure deportation of non-English speakers is the answer, I do think one needs to be able to know enough English to get by... no forms in Europino for welfare or anything else. Drivers need to understand English to pass the test in English. Call me a bigot but I'd expect to have to take the test in their language if I lived in another country. That's why I'd choose Canada!(but not out east where English is the second language :o)
Wally:What on earth are you eating that has made you so dispeptic?Although I agree that our little brown brothers from south of the border (I have a whole nest of the in Mexico city) come here to make money to send home and do not bring their families may be deficient in English. I could argue that they are the hired muscle for jobs that are too difficult or too unattractivefor Americans to do. I have worked the Mexican border for many years and as you may be aware the Mexicans are among the hardest working people on the face of the earth.I think Scout's concern was families not just guys. The parents may intend to return in those cases, but the kids, once exposed to the riches of our culture (sic) are a different matter.I do agree with you about the putative policy in Germany. Whenever I hear language and deportation vis a vis Germany, I reach for my Browning (stolen quote, slightly altered).
Scout:Who on earth would want to prevent a child from learning English and for what purpose--wage slavery, helotism?I could not disagree more about the intent of bi-lingual education is to deny English. As I interpret it--it is merely their view to spare the child the harsh rigors of the bruising battle with vocabulary and grammar. Their method is, however, questionable.As I opined earlier this is a Chimera. The kids will get it despite the efforts of people who, in wanting toswaddle them in comfort, may in fact be doing them harm.My family had an old tradition for teaching young kids to swim which was always terrifying, but usually worked. They took you out one Sunday summer day, walked you out on a grain elevator pier and threw you in the water. Everyone in my family could swim. Again, we seem to agree--sort of.