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How will the Obama presidency be remembered? Two quotes immediately stick out."It's just going to be like Christmas...It's going to be great. You know, no worries (about) the bills. We are going to go ahead and pay our co-pay and be alright."http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/"I wont have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won't have to worry about paying my mortgage.. You know, If I help him, he's gonna help me."http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/11/obama_supporter_i_wont_have_to.phpThe latter one was mentioned during the Obama campaign, but both quotes are striking for the extremely high level of forward-looking expectations handed out by the federal government. Will these perceptions be satiated, or will the people saying them be let down?
How will the Obama presidency be remembered? Two quotes immediately stick out."It's just going to be like Christmas...It's going to be great. You know, no worries (about) the bills. We are going to go ahead and pay our co-pay and be alright."http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/"I wont have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won't have to worry about paying my mortgage.. You know, If I help him, he's gonna help me."http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/11/obama_supporter_i_wont_have_to.phpThe latter one was mentioned during the Obama campaign, but both quotes are striking for the extremely high level of forward-looking expectations handed out by the federal government. Will these perceptions be satiated, or will the people saying them be let down?
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic,and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they willbecome part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more--you betcha.
Willy, I edited your post to put your response outside of the quote field. This puts the chain of responses in the proper order and is easier to read.
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic, and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they will become part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more–you betcha.
The "wall of Social Justice" - what is that, and where does it mention that in our Constitution? I think this is a key difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives look to the Constitution for authority to act; liberals look to their own whims for authority to act.
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic, and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they will become part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more--you betcha.
The "wall of Social Justice" - what is that, and where does it mention that in our Constitution? I think this is a key difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives look to the Constitution for authority to act; liberals look to their own whims for authority to act.
Wall of Social Justice--Oh it is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. Also absent are the words Air Force, slavery and animal rights. However, it does have the phrase--general welfare--which I know is a bad phrase to cite, but it is all I have at the moment.
Wall of Social Justice–Oh it is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. Also absent are the words Air Force, slavery and animal rights. However, it does have the phrase–general welfare–which I know is a bad phrase to cite, but it is all I have at the moment.
Indeed, the Constitution doesn't mention "lemonade stand" either. "General welfare" is quite vague indeed. Under it, could the government be forced to buy everyone who makes less than $75,000/year an automobile? That would certainly promote the general welfare. Also, simply buying all groceries for people who make that money would promote the general welfare. This would also provide for "social justice", would it not? At least the same, if not more, than providing universal health care.If "general welfare" in the Constitution is used as a catch-all for any and all government spending on the people, then there is really no point to having any limitations on Congress' spending power, is there?
Too soon to tell of course, but if the stars are aligned correctly and things break right it just might be that he will be put up on the wall of Social Justice along with FDR, JFK and LBJ. Now before you blow a gasket recall that SS, Medicare, Medicaid and Civil Rights were all viewed as un- American, Socialistic, and unconstitutional forays by the Federal Government into the lives of Americans. My guess is that there will be lots of problems, but eventually we will come to accept his program (s) and they will become part of his legacy and our society. Health care will, in time, be seen as a right as it is in many of the other great democracies of the world. Will this cost a bit more--you betcha.
The "wall of Social Justice" - what is that, and where does it mention that in our Constitution? I think this is a key difference between conservatives and liberals - conservatives look to the Constitution for authority to act; liberals look to their own whims for authority to act.
Wall of Social Justice--Oh it is not mentioned in the Constitution at all. Also absent are the words Air Force, slavery and animal rights. However, it does have the phrase--general welfare--which I know is a bad phrase to cite, but it is all I have at the moment.
My $0.02... the Constitution is a laundry list of the things the government may do and cannot do... bottom line is nowhere does it give them the power to force people to buy things. As far as general welfare is concerned they could require the insurance companies to provide a pool to handle those unable to presently afford coverage... to share the risk, like drunk drivers but kind of hard to require health ins. like auto ins.; there isn't anything to regulate like the drivers' license, eh?
General Welfare is a nice clause as it is elastic and can be stretched to meet one's perception of theresponsibilities of government. I told you it was all I had, but there may be a few more peripherals.I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws,rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes theGeneral Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.I have not even touched on the commerce clause because it is late and I am tired--Adieu.
I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!
I am not sure how recently this was, but the question is this - did any of the milita sue the government?
I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!
I suppose the homeowners, however, have the option of renting rather than owning a house.
I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws, rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.
A person can go without a car or boat or whatever so as to avoid these inspection, licensing, etc. fees. A person can also represent him/herself in court so as to avoid lawyer fees.
I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.
The government forced people to buy savings bonds? I'm not sure about that. As for forced service in the military - is that even analogous? You're talking about a wartime provision, not something in peacetime.
I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes the General Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.I have not even touched on the commerce clause because it is late and I am tired--Adieu.
I think that with many of the things you mentioned, Americans have the choice to avoid fees simply by not owning something. That's not the same with health care. So I think there is a difference. I'm not saying that this argument I'm presenting will necessarily work in court, but I do think that clear distinctions exist between what is going on under the new health care plan and other situations where there are requirements or fees attached to government programs. It will be interesting to see how the courts rule on these issues in the future. Hopefully the courts will decide these cases on the merits and not according to political bias.
General Welfare is a nice clause as it is elastic and can be stretched to meet one's perception of theresponsibilities of government. I told you it was all I had, but there may be a few more peripherals.I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws,rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes theGeneral Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.I have not even touched on the commerce clause because it is late and I am tired--Adieu.
Willy,All your examples are examples of wrongs. The current health care legislation falls in that same category. I was taught growing up that two wrongs don't make a right. That applies just as much to government as it does to the individual. Just because the government can do something does not mean they should.
General Welfare is a nice clause as it is elastic and can be stretched to meet one's perception of theresponsibilities of government. I told you it was all I had, but there may be a few more peripherals.
The elastic clause only works until the people force their reps to change it (whatever the gov't stretchs to cover)... the gov't counts on use calming down before we can make their stretches of reality go away.
I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!
willy, folks, as a rule, had guns already... survival on the frontier demanded that; no Brady Bunch in those days.
I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!
And I was forced to install low flow faucets by my state gov't. by building codes. Back-door mandate but they don't fine me if mine fail "over time". 8)
I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws,rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.
All as a tool to regulate some situation. Being forced to buy a product doesn't regulate that product.
I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.
This is one of the duties of a citizen... hardly in the same category IMHO.
I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes theGeneral Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.
I eagerly await the proposal to mandate the happiness of all; we were only promised life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... the opportunity for same. I'm also looking forward to the free Bubble-Up and rainbow stew (ala old) Merle Haggard song.
I have not even touched on the commerce clause ....
...and its nexus with NCLB (ESEA)? This is the elastic clause on steroids if not just, outright, fraud.
Wally–I was grasping for examples. We will have to see how this wends it way through court. One other thought. I think I am correct when I say that most people who work openly and legally in this country arerequired to contribute (purchase) to SS up to a certain dollar point. Would you consider this applicable since we have no option except not to work which might seem agreeable, but is not practical in mostcases. In other words both work and the purchase are not options in the real world for most people.I am still grasping. How about automobiles. Now you might say that the ownership of one is an option,but given our geography, growth patterns and severe lack of public transportation, one could argue thatownership is a sine qua non in our society. I know of many places in this country where there is no option to a car except walking or riding on the back of an animal. This is true even in California--the automobile State. If you accept this then we open a door to a whole slew of mandates requiring you to purchaseinsurance, stickers, tags etc. .One final point. When I was in the Navy--many eons ago--we were required to purchase savings bonds.Now I expect that the word required is incorrect, but at the time, I being 17, the order was not seen asa gentle nudge by the Chief Petty Officer. I am sure you get the point. Oddly enough when I joined the Treasury department many years later the same game was played. We were cajoled (a second cousin ofrequired) into purchasing them as the local head bureaucrat wanted a 100 percent participation in his District. Needless to say, we all purchased--cowards all.A final oddity for you. Again, when I was in the Navy, we were required to attend divine services on Sunday--there were three options--Jewish, Catholic, Protestant. Was this legal as there was a collection plate.The paper has arrived--time to see what roadblocks will be erected today by the teeth gnashers--adieu.
... correct when I say that most people who work openly and legally in this country arerequired to contribute (purchase) to SS up to a certain dollar point. ...both work and the purchase are not options in the real world for most people.
I agree that in most cases SS is req'd (for a time it wasn't if the employee had another pension system... CA teachers with STRS had the opt out available for a time). But having SS reduced the private pension systems since the gov't was providing one. I guess this is why there's no gov't option on the HC bill.
I am still grasping. How about automobiles. .... ...even in California--the automobile State. If you accept this then we open a door to a whole slew of mandates requiring you to purchaseinsurance, stickers, tags etc.
That is taxation in most cases and / or regulation that is less than effective... witness the large number of unlicensed and uninsured motorist in the automobile state. Part of the reason my rates are as high as they are... the enforcement of these mandates is spotty at best.
... in the Navy--many eons ago--we were required to purchase savings bonds. ... the word required is incorrect, but ...not ...by the Chief Petty Officer. I am sure you get the point. ...when I joined the Treasury department .... We were cajoled (a second cousin of required) into purchasing ... we all purchased--cowards all.
We are often poster children for the adage "old too soon, wise too late". I had company insurance on one job that I couldn't opt out of (since it was group... one size fits all) even though 100% covered on ins at my wife's work. When I joined the same company we aquired double coverage. Fixing things like that might be a good plan too.
Again, when I was in the Navy, we were required to attend divine services on Sunday--there were three options--Jewish, Catholic, Protestant. Was this legal as there was a collection plate.
I the words of a former Supt. where I worked, "As long as the believe us and don't complain it's legal." That and the institutional nature of the military almost require things like this; not a bastion of freethinking, eh?
The paper has arrived--time to see what roadblocks will be erected today by the teeth gnashers--adieu.
Gnash, gnash....
Wally:Thank you for your kind and gentle responses. I have the feeling that you were a wonderful teacher.i am dismayed by all the hatred and invective accompanying this health plan, It reminds me of theabolitionist response to the Dredd Scott decision--anger transcending reason.I remain optimistic in that blood will not flow in the streets this time as it did in 1861.
