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America is bleeding itself out trying to be the world's policeman and the world's benefactor (foreign aid). We are also destroying our own economic base by succombing to all the “go green” legislation being foisted upon American companies, and outsourcing our manufacturing to Asia and Latin America. Our service oriented economy is very volatile as it depends on the stability of foreign markets now. All points to the Twilight of America if nothing alters the current trends.
A fellow pessimist. I too, think that America is a power in decline. I think a better model for Americas position is the turn of the 20th century British Empire, say between the Boer War and World War I. We are still the premier power in the world but we are beginning to be challenged by nations in the ascendant. In our case, China and India, but more China.
JUST FORGET IT. I AM JUST TOO TIRED TO REWRITE MY COMMENT. CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU SAID THE SUBJECT WAS IN THE SUBJECT BOX AUTOMATICALLY — I DID NOT HAVE TO TYPE IT!
Excuse me? Were you experiencing some sort of forum error? If so, I apologize – not sure what happened. Anyway, I merged your topic with this thread, since I believe that's where you were trying to put it. 🙂
JUST FORGET IT. I AM JUST TOO TIRED TO REWRITE MY COMMENT. CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU SAID THE SUBJECT WAS IN THE SUBJECT BOX AUTOMATICALLY --- I DID NOT HAVE TO TYPE IT!
Wow :o, that came out of Left Field, didn't it?
Some GENERAL similarities to Rome: Roman Republic, one of virtue and family-centered by leading families –same in early USA. Roman Empire, disintegration of family virtues, open citizenship to nearly all. Decline of patriotism.Roman Republic, great families' sons participated in wars; so did those of TR, FDR, and older Kennedys, and BushI served; Clinton, Bush II, and Ivy grads excepting Oliver Stone avoided combat during Viet Nam War. No comment about Obama. Not from a "great" family though.Some have compared the Kennedy assassinations with that of the Gracchi (wealthy family demagoguing the masses), which began the decline to an EmpireLater Roman Empire had pressure on its borders from "barbarians" who wanted to share in its riches. Sound familiar?Later Roman Empire could not fight barbarians and Parthians without surrogate troops (see Reids latest amnesty move) and allies because of decline of patriotism. Later Empire could not or lacked the will to garrison the entire border.Later Roman Empire became too big to govern, thus its division.And there is always the wild card of disease. Plagues did weaken the Empire according to some.17th century Spain spent its gold and silver on war and imports. It sent its raw materials to other countries and then purchased finished products at inflated prices instead of developing home industries.Events and personalities can alter what one may believe to a logical progression of History.Enjoy the show. 😉
Mostly true, but:
Some have compared the Kennedy assassinations with that of the Gracchi (wealthy family demagoguing the masses), which began the decline to an Empire
I read Gracchi brothers were trying to change the situation of the common people ( the plebs. is correct word?). They were doing that because the decline of the Republic was already on the way. Rome was getting full of people without land - people who cannot served in Republic's army.
because of decline of patriotism.
and lack of money. Roman Empire under Diocletian - If I remember correctly - supported 300-600 thousand troops. That was a lot more than in Early Empire and still not enough.
I think America today resembles the later period of the Roman republic. Rome grew because the farmers in central Italy wanted security, and they obtained it by military supremacy over their neighbours, combined with friendly relationships with them. Think American troops in Europe. Not exactly popular, but hardly hated or resented either.As Rome grew it came into contact with more alien powers like Carthage. These couldn't be assimilated so had to be destroyed. This led to the Roman state growing, and in turn to the rise of powerful families. These subverted the constitution to support their own interests.After a while the military became the most important force, and you had the imperial system which reflected that. In effect the whole empire became a protection racket run by the army.Will America follow the same route? We have already seen the army running a camp in Cuba to avoid the rules of the constitution. I would watch out for ex-generals running for office if I were you.
I think America today resembles the later period of the Roman republic. Rome grew because the farmers in central Italy wanted security, and they obtained it by military supremacy over their neighbours, combined with friendly relationships with them. Think American troops in Europe. Not exactly popular, but hardly hated or resented either.As Rome grew it came into contact with more alien powers like Carthage. These couldn't be assimilated so had to be destroyed. This led to the Roman state growing, and in turn to the rise of powerful families. These subverted the constitution to support their own interests.After a while the military became the most important force, and you had the imperial system which reflected that. In effect the whole empire became a protection racket run by the army.Will America follow the same route? We have already seen the army running a camp in Cuba to avoid the rules of the constitution. I would watch out for ex-generals running for office if I were you.
Interesting comments. For me, there is something about the American presidency which naturally lends itself to comparisons with the empire. When I think of the Republic, I think of a Rome which was much more grounded in its "core values". During the empire, there were certainly times when capable emperors arose, but there were also times when leaders were no so great. I feel like the United States is in a situation like these later days of the empire, when people might not have known what it meant to be a Roman citizen and when the leaders did not lead in "enlightened" fashion.
.... I feel like the United States is in a situation like these later days of the empire, when people might not have known what it meant to be a Roman citizen and when the leaders did not lead in "enlightened" fashion.
Sums it up pretty well as far as I can see.
I think America today resembles the later period of the Roman republic. Rome grew because the farmers in central Italy wanted security, and they obtained it by military supremacy over their neighbours, combined with friendly relationships with them. Think American troops in Europe. Not exactly popular, but hardly hated or resented either.As Rome grew it came into contact with more alien powers like Carthage. These couldn't be assimilated so had to be destroyed. This led to the Roman state growing, and in turn to the rise of powerful families. These subverted the constitution to support their own interests.After a while the military became the most important force, and you had the imperial system which reflected that. In effect the whole empire became a protection racket run by the army.Will America follow the same route? We have already seen the army running a camp in Cuba to avoid the rules of the constitution. I would watch out for ex-generals running for office if I were you.
Agreed. The Republic failed due to its size, such a vast territory couldn't be ruled like a city-state as Rome was when they got rid of the last king. However the Republic fell under the ambitions of a patrician general. The Empire followed with its bad and good emperors but slowly crippling until the final blow. I wonder which similarities could be used to compare the USA with Rome ? The Republic, the Empire ? Its legacy ? Politics ? Pax Americana ?
Some theories include plagues contributing to the downfall of Rome, and survivors afflicted with lethargy.
An interesting discussion, making me very glad to have joined this forum. Actually, if we observe the cultural trends that Rome took where gladiators became extremely expensive, revered and influential, can we not say it mirrors the current image of top American athletes? If we consider the amount of money spent on pro teams, to the point that several cities in the US are not able to pay for stadiums they've built but, nevertheless, have no trouble finding support for further funding to maintain or attract pro teams, does it not make us think of the amount spent on the games in the coliseums?When we consider Vietnam and Afghanistan, I automatically make a correlation between guerrilla war campaigns that the British and Saxons waged against Rome. In all, the Roman treasury was depleted by these long frustrating struggles. Despite having superior technology and military might, Rome became weary of having to look for an enemy who could camouflage itself among the locals. I think America is almost repeating history.In fact, I find the similarities such that it may explain aspects of human nature. Yet, while changes occur faster in our age of communications, we can also see that Rome faced downfalls in its history which it rebounded from, in large part due to the patriotism of its citizens and the admiration of its rivals. The US is now facing economic problems, health (largely due to drugs) and educational problems. I wonder if this will make the society force itself to make the necessary changes to stay on top, or will it crumble being unable to? Rome made changes, can the US?
Donroc said it best, there is no one silver bullet that led to the decline of the Roman Empire; it was a combination of many things that contributed. individually all the ills of both Roman and our society are not fatal in and of themselves but looked as a holistic whole they are and were a debilitating handicap to continued success. The sad part is that even with examples such as the decline of the Roman, British, Ottoman, name your empire we still cannot seem to muster the energy as a society to effectively reform ourselves. Perhaps there is some inborn narcissism in human nature that makes reform on a societal scale that is individually painful difficult or even impossible to enact.I can almost imagine a bunch of 4th or 5th century Roman Patricians sitting around having this same discussion but using Ancient Egypt or the Greek city-states as examples. Unfortunately, my notional groups of Patricians didn?t find a solution either.
Ancient Rome...perhaps the greatest civilization of the ancient world, and still a topic which inspires awe when we consider all that she had to offer. Engineering marvels, technology, military strength....these are some of the advantages that the city used to build success upon success. Her glory lasted for hundreds and hundreds of years and have basically shaped Western Civilization to one degree or another.Step ahead to modern times, and we have a nation which is arguably comparable to ancient Rome - the United States. The U.S.'s strengths are similar, though not necessarily identical to, those of Rome. What The U.S.'s strengths are similar, though not necessarily identical to, those of Rome. and economy in the world; research and development (technology) which arguable leads the world; and a democratic form which has stood the test of time and become a model for other nations to follow.
The problem is that your comparison is biased:- The U.S.'s strengths are similar, though not necessarily identical to, those of Rome. Explain- research and development (technology) which arguable leads the world What exactly ?- a democratic form which has stood the test of time and become a model for other nations to follow Examples ?As you write : Step ahead to modern times, and we have a nation which is arguably comparable to ancient Rome - the United States.My last question is : is this a personal opinion supported with an objective analysis or else ?
