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My comic book reference came directly from my Marine nephews. The intellectual ability and literacylevel among their fellow warriors was, to say the least--spotty. This is not surprising when you considerfrom what strata of society most enlisted men/women are recruited.The fact that you characterize the majority of American as sheep clearly illustrates the gulf that liesbetween the people and their military. I, for one, do not think it is supposed to be like this in a democracy such as ours--wahr?
Then why is it that the military will not accept you if you do not have at least a high school diploma? Yes, the army accepted a max of 5% dropouts for a few years there, but also with the caveat that they attain a GED during their first enlistment or hey would be out. Us in the military are not the knuckle-draggers that the media and Hollywood portray. John Kerry was wrong when he made his crack about failing in life and ending up in the military too. And exactly which strata are most enlisted men and women recruited from if I may ask? I will let you know that I am one of those enlisted folks, a SFC/E-7 to be exact who holds a BA in Military History and will complete an MA in European history this fall. I also come from a military family with a tradition of service to this country since prior to its founding. I am very curious to hear your answer.
Ooops–another sensitive nerve.Well here it goes:You can use the nine strata format or the three--it makes little difference, but I will go for the nine.Here they are:Upper upperUpper middleUpper lowerUpper middleMiddle middleLower middleUpper lowerMiddle lowerLower lowerNow we need not argue that one's class is not, as most people feel, determined by income as that is just plain wrong. Save comments for another post.The appropriate term to use instead of class, which is a devilishly complex subject to dissect, is strata or level.Of the nine I outlined above, the enlisted ranks in the US military tend, WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS, tocome from the middle middle to the lower lower with the preponderance coming from the lower ranges.HERE ARE THE FACTORS THAT MAKE THIS SO:1. The military is an excellent way to acquire skills and learn to accept discipline while getting paid. This is especially true in a sick economy. 2. College bound kids do not go in the military and afterwards most do not--as enlisted men.3. For those in the upper strata one can, if qualified and inclined, become an officer--college is a sine qua non in most cases.Please understand that I had no intention of denigrating your service or your traditions as I know little ofyour background. I too was in the military. I served for five years and an enlisted man in the US Navyand my job was dealing with electronic intelligence matters. Essentially we worked for NSA. I neverachieved the exalted rank of E-7 which was a Navy Chief who, as you may know, are all related to the Deity and I too have some degrees and a bit of experience in military history. Oh yes--I forgot. When I enlisted I was a High School drop out. In boot camp we had kids who had educational levels fromeighth grade through college and they came from all sorts of backgrounds. The sorting did not happen until you took the exams that would determine your Naval schools.My concern about the military comes from my background when the Damoclean sword of "the draft"hung above all the heads of young men and we were inculcated with the view--which I still hold--thatmilitary service was honorable and a duty of citizens in a democracy. We no longer teach that itis a duty. It has become an option. We pay others to do our duty. Military people and contractors. This makes me sad and apprehensive.Best of luck with your Masters degree. What is your thesis?My thesis was:Military Cooperation between Germany and Italy in The North African CampaignN.B. This was not well received at a Jesuit schoolWillyD
I dont take offense at your attitude, you are misinformed. The enlisted and officer ranks come from all strata of society. The best way to describe them would be those who come from families that still value service, that cuts across all financial and educational lines. That essentially means that the vast majority of people like myself(lifers) come from families with a military tradition. Most first-termers come in to get out of the house and have some adventure while getting paid and generally make good soldiers. You would be surprised at how many enlisted types have degrees, plenty even upon enlisting. College does not necessarily mean someone is bound for officer country anymore.The problem with conscription is that we cannot use the vast mass of idiots that barely graduate high school as anything more than cannon fodder and that barely. Even the lowly infantry require a pretty good level of intelligence and technical know-how in today's army. To be honest, I would rather have fewer, more competent soldiers than more, who are just bullet magnets anyway. The volunteer ethos makes our army one of the best in the world, if we are mercenary as well, so be it. As long as there are folks willing to stand and fight so others don't have to, we don't need or require a draft. A draft will just increase the body count, not the effectiveness of our military.
I dont take offense at your attitude, you are misinformed. The enlisted and officer ranks come from all strata of society. The best way to describe them would be those who come from families that still value service, that cuts across all financial and educational lines. That essentially means that the vast majority of people like myself(lifers) come from families with a military tradition. Most first-termers come in to get out of the house and have some adventure while getting paid and generally make good soldiers. You would be surprised at how many enlisted types have degrees, plenty even upon enlisting. College does not necessarily mean someone is bound for officer country anymore.The problem with conscription is that we cannot use the vast mass of idiots that barely graduate high school as anything more than cannon fodder and that barely. Even the lowly infantry require a pretty good level of intelligence and technical know-how in today's army. To be honest, I would rather have fewer, more competent soldiers than more, who are just bullet magnets anyway. The volunteer ethos makes our army one of the best in the world, if we are mercenary as well, so be it. As long as there are folks willing to stand and fight so others don't have to, we don't need or require a draft. A draft will just increase the body count, not the effectiveness of our military.Report to moderator LoggedI have heard this argument before and I agree that there are people in both levels from all sections of society and with varied educational backgrounds. I have also heard about the necessity to have youngmen who can deal with the technical aspects of warfare. I agree. My good friend explained to me that when he was drafted during the Vietnam conflict, he decided to get into the Rangers because as he put it " I want the guy next to me to be as concerned about saving my life as I am--a guy I can count on."Your post would seem to suggest that patriotism and family tradition are elements that make a "lifer" and this may well be true. Does it seem to you that there are fewer and fewer people who fitthis category or is it fairly constant? You also seem to have an "elitist" or perhaps a "lifers" view of theyoung citizens who are " a vast mass of idiots". This is a Praetorian view and in my opinion not ahealthy or democratic one. The next step is to say that those who are not willing to defend their country are not patriotic, not true Americans, somehow not as good as the defenders of our freedoms. You can see where this could lead. To reiterate--I believe it is the duty of all Americans to defend their nation.How this could be done with the concerns you have for a quality military will have to be addressed by persons better informed and wiser than myself. When I was in the Navy, the most conservative andtraditional of the services, I spoke to officers very infrequently. They acted and were treated as though they were nobles and we were peasants. They ate different food, wore better uniforms, had muchbetter quarters and were paid a lot more. This was not a problem as I had a great job and little contactwith them, but i did find it ironic that my ancestors who used to kill nobles and make revolutions in the name of freedom and equality had a descendent who was part of an organization that seemed toreplicate the same structure--even down to the horses. Most EM's come from where I said in the originalpost. I think I will try to see what zip codes produce most of the volunteers for the services---bet Texas is near the top.Thanks for your tolerance.WillyD
Your post would seem to suggest that patriotism and family tradition are elements that make a "lifer" and this may well be true. Does it seem to you that there are fewer and fewer people who fit this category or is it fairly constant? You also seem to have an "elitist" or perhaps a "lifers" view of the young citizens who are " a vast mass of idiots".
This opinion comes from two years as a drill sergeant and actually seeing the quality of the troops we are getting as opposed to what I see when I go downtown to the mall. Perhaps an elitist opinion and if so, I guess I would have to say guilty as charged.I think the numbers of people dedicated to serving their country has if anything went up in recent years despite all the efforts of Code Pink and other anti-war groups. For some reason the vast majority of Americans seem to think terrorists really are a bunch of dirtbags and that we are doing good things in Iraq and Afghanistan no matter what the media tells them to think. This actually gives me more faith on the average American rather than less.
Most EM's come from where I said in the original post. I think I will try to see what zip codes produce most of the volunteers for the services---bet Texas is near the top.
You are correct, the South produces more military members than any other region but wrong on what their income or social strata is. I wonder why the south produces more military membersthan the north of the country? ??? I could say something snide her about panty-waisted Yankees but will not as I have known several excellent soldiers from up north so they obviously are not all bad up that way. My own home state of Oklahoma is #3 on the listPer Capita-Total Military Recruits: Army, Navy, Air Force by stateHere is a nice little study giving the lie to the poor joining the military argument. In the interests of clarity I will say that the report was commissioned by the Heritage Foundation(a conservative organization).Who Are the Recruits? The Demographic Characteristics of U.S. Military Enlistment, 2003?2005 This quote is pulled from the report
When comparing these wartime recruits (2003? 2005) to the resident population ages 18?24 (as recorded in Census 2000), areas with median household income levels between $35,000 and $79,999 were overrepresented, along with income categories between $85,000 and $94,999. (See Chart 2.) Though the mainstream media continue to portray the war in Iraq as unpopular, this evi?dence suggests that the United States is not sending the poor to die for the interests of the rich.[/quote
Thank you for the excellent statistics–most informative.My niece dates a black guy--she has several boyfriends--and according to her the black lad saidthat in neighborhood (and it is a very bad one) some local males and females enlist in the services foreducational and economic betterment, but patriotism as we would define it was not a factor. He also allowed that the best career move for a young, uneducated and undisciplined black male, especially onewho had had a run-in with the law--was to get involved with a local gang. There are many of these here and they are into robbery, gun sales, drugs and all sorts of nefarious activities. I am sure you areaware of these types and it is unfortunate they cannot be used by the military as they are, in many cases brave, fearless and Alpha males personified.Service in some areas of the country is a tradition even when there was no draft. Have you ever read HERE TO ETERNITY by James Jones? This idea is explored as is the 20 year career army man's ethos.
