I need help. Check out the section below. Virginia claimed that they had a right to abolish the Federal form of government set up in 1789 and claimed that this right is in the Constitution. I cannot find a thing. Anybody with better eyesight–or insight?VirginiaAN ORDINANCE to repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United State of America by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution.The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitition were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:Now, therefore, we, the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain, That the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and all acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying and adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.And they do further declare, That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day, when ratified by a majority of the voter of the people of this State cast at a poll to be taken thereon on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a schedule hereafter to be enacted.Adopted by the convention of Virginia April 17,1861.
The idea was if a state could opt in then it could also opt out. A simple concept that while logical couldn't be allowed. Statehood couldn't be a revolving door, so to speak.
The “idea” came from where. I cannot find it in the Constitution and Virginia's argument seems tobe a bit far fetched--unless of course it was an unwritten, but understood concept. What say you?
The "idea" came from where. I cannot find it in the Constitution and Virginia's argument seems tobe a bit far fetched--unless of course it was an unwritten, but understood concept. What say you?
This from WikipediaJustifications for secessionSome theories of secession emphasize a general right of secession for any reason (?Choice Theory") while others emphasize that secession should be considered only to rectify grave injustices (?Just Cause Theory?).[6] Some theories do both. A list of justifications may be presented supporting the right to secede, as described by Allen Buchanan, Robert McGee, Anthony Birch,[7] Walter Williams,[8] Jane Jacobs,[9] Frances Kendall and Leon Louw,[10] Leopold Kohr,[11] Kirkpatrick Sale,[12] and various authors in David Gordon?s ?Secession, State and Liberty,? includes:United States President James Buchanan, Fourth Annual Message to Congress on the State of the Union December 3, 1860: "The fact is that our Union rests upon public opinion, and can never be cemented by the blood of its citizens shed in civil war. If it can not live in the affections of the people, it must one day perish. Congress possesses many means of preserving it by conciliation, but the sword was not placed in their hand to preserve it by force." United States President Thomas Jefferson: "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' " The right to liberty, free association and private property Consent as important democratic principle; will of majority to secede should be recognized Making it easier for states to join with others in an experimental union Dissolving such union when goals for which it was constituted are not achieved Self-defense when larger group presents lethal threat to minority or the government cannot adequately defend an area Self-determination of peoples Preserving culture, language, etc. from assimilation or destruction by a larger or more powerful group Furthering diversity by allowing diverse cultures to keep their identity Rectifying past injustices, especially past conquest by a larger power Escaping ?discriminatory redistribution,? i.e., tax schemes, regulatory policies, economic programs, etc. that distribute resources away to another area, especially in an undemocratic fashion Enhanced efficiency when the state or empire becomes too large to administer efficiently Preserving ?liberal purity? (or ?conservative purity?) by allowing less (or more) liberal regions to secede Providing superior constitutional systems which allow flexibility of secession Keeping political entities small and human scale through right to secession While largely unwritten at the time much, as you can see, has been written since. Most likely the child of the old Fed v AntiFed debate. The Constitution is silent on this because it was written to unify and hence wouldn't write out the directions to disunify. This certainly makes me happy the Anti's got us a Bill of Rights... in writing. Just hope folks read it as written... not through their cultural filters, eh?That is another lesson, for another day, perhaps.
So–although many opinions were expressed about “THE UNION” there was no divorce clause in theoriginal document. The statement made by Virginia in 1861 then seems without merit unless they had CCliff notes concerning the deliberations of the Constitutional Convention.You are most perceptive. I asked my wife if during the marriage ceremony she recalled any wordsdealing with divorce proceedings. She looked at me askance.Thanks for the research.
Only minimal research involved… just to find support for the position I took (taught) for many years; the Framers were interested in getting the Federal System in place even as many were concerned that the States would have less right to control their own progress. The mention of the BofR is the clue… Feds didn't think it necessary because we all knew what we fought the AmRev over. Anti's (correctly) countered that in 200 or 500 years no one alive would bear witness and without something in writing only speculation of what was meant would remain.The questions I've pondered (asked my students, with some surprising answers) are:1) Would it have been better if the BofR was included in the original document?2) Does it look funny that the BofR is tacked on at the end? ...oh, by the way....3) Is it a stronger statement of our Rights to have the BofR added as extra emphasis? And always remember....My personal takes:1) Other than the Preamble, what if anything, does the average person remember of the Constitution? No one would remember we had these rights.2) This was likely the sop offered by the Feds to git 'er done. Sort of a "yeah, whatever it takes"... approach.3) My personal preference, based on the "no on will be left to remember" idea.
Your students were fortunate. Ought we to scourge ourselves each morning for letting our young grow to adulthood with many totally ignorant of the many points you made? We pay taxes and produce an unacceptable quotient of students that are illiterate, coarse, maleducated and irresponsible and then let them vote!
We pay taxes and produce an unacceptable quotient of students that are illiterate, coarse, maleducated and irresponsible and then let them vote!
Devils advocate here... Those are the very people (the ones who dont understand the Consititution) that the Constitution gives rights to. A Catch-22 in the whole system.
Dear Devil:The catch 22 is of our own making and we continue to tolerate ignorance. The whole premise ofDemocracy is based upon the assumption that citizens will pay close attention to the activities of thegovernment as their lives will be directly influenced by the laws made in their name. An informed electorate is one of our best guardians of our freedom and might even be better than owning a semi-automatic weapon. We do not have an informed electorate and we ought to ask ourselves why we permit this situation to exist. Idiots (in the Greek sense) abound in our midst. Oh the horror.
Agreed, but tell that to the the semi-moron who has no idea really about what he is voting for but has people in organizations (like the ACLU) who tell them regardless the Constitution gives them the right to vote and therefore he goes out and instead goes out and votes by the seat of his pants.Personally, I think some sort of yearly exam should be administered to determine those who are qualified to vote. But you fall into who administers it, and then the Cath-22 that the Constitution grants the right to all citizens, regardless of your intelligence.So we can only hope that people will educate themselves on the issues, political positions of those running, and of our own individual conscious. Alas, you will get exactly what we have now. A by the seat of your pants government. By a LEGAL by the seat of your pants government.
But as we are willing to have a semi-fake educational system where geography, history, civics andcomparative government are rare or relegated to the non-essential areas unlike math and Englishwhich are necessary in the workplace be it bench or cubicle, nothing will change. We have an uninformed electorate swayed by silver tongued devils preying on their prejudices and ignorance andthe fault is ours. Quality education is expensive in the short run, but in the long run it is essential ifwe have hopes that this Republic will not fall into the hands of Fascists, Socialists or ranters tellingthem that not paying income taxes is legal, that secession is legal (especially in Texas) and thatour President is--not a citizen, a Muslim and perhaps the anti-Christ. I have entered here and almost given up hope.
Agreed, but tell that to the the semi-moron who has no idea really about what he is voting for but has people in organizations (like the ACLU) who tell them regardless the Constitution gives them the right to vote and therefore he goes out and instead goes out and votes by the seat of his pants.Personally, I think some sort of yearly exam should be administered to determine those who are qualified to vote. But you fall into who administers it, and then the Cath-22 that the Constitution grants the right to all citizens, regardless of your intelligence.So we can only hope that people will educate themselves on the issues, political positions of those running, and of our own individual conscious. Alas, you will get exactly what we have now. A by the seat of your pants government. By a LEGAL by the seat of your pants governmenExcellent idea. As I recall it is the various states that establish voter requirements. As we have precedents for sex and age why not a provision for civic literacy? One would still have the "right" to vote once you established your competence. Think of this--the Constitution guarantees us liberty, yetyou can be jailed for not working under vagrancy laws. Can we say that you are free so long as you work or have independent means? Tests could be administered by a public or private entity--it matters not--and would not be terribly difficult. Perhaps the test required of new citizens could be used as a template. The only downside is that both political parties would lose voters as both havelegions of uninformed or just plain ignorant members. Good luck on this. My opinion is that thepoliticians--call them the herders--do not want the electorate--call them the sheep or us--to be wellinformed as swaying them in one direction or another would require more cerebral activity and lesschanting of slogans, cliches and misinformation.
Agreed, but tell that to the the semi-moron who has no idea really about what he is voting for but has people in organizations (like the ACLU) who tell them regardless the Constitution gives them the right to vote and therefore he goes out and instead goes out and votes by the seat of his pants.Personally, I think some sort of yearly exam should be administered to determine those who are qualified to vote. But you fall into who administers it, and then the Cath-22 that the Constitution grants the right to all citizens, regardless of your intelligence.So we can only hope that people will educate themselves on the issues, political positions of those running, and of our own individual conscious. Alas, you will get exactly what we have now. A by the seat of your pants government. By a LEGAL by the seat of your pants governmenExcellent idea. As I recall it is the various states that establish voter requirements. As we have precedents for sex and age why not a provision for civic literacy? One would still have the "right" to vote once you established your competence. Think of this--the Constitution guarantees us liberty, yetyou can be jailed for not working under vagrancy laws. Can we say that you are free so long as you work or have independent means? Tests could be administered by a public or private entity--it matters not--and would not be terribly difficult. Perhaps the test required of new citizens could be used as a template. The only downside is that both political parties would lose voters as both havelegions of uninformed or just plain ignorant members. Good luck on this. My opinion is that thepoliticians--call them the herders--do not want the electorate--call them the sheep or us--to be wellinformed as swaying them in one direction or another would require more cerebral activity and lesschanting of slogans, cliches and misinformation.
Suffrage is a right and therefore has no requirements to meet. Shame on you bad bad bad.
Suffrage is a conditional “right”. Originally there were restrictions–no women, no slaves no convictsor felons and people deemed vagrants had restrictions placed upon them. Further, at times various states had tests for literacy or poll taxes which were then upheld by the courts. I see no reasonwhy some requirement ought not to be imposed. Under your blanket statement morons, idiots, imbeciles and cretins would be able to vote with impunity. Apparently sanity or mental competenceplays no part in the scheme. The horror.The Constitution has been amended many times--there is nothing sacred about the text--amend it again.Good show on your numbers--some growth is good!