I think that genocide is a perfect word for what happened. The government purchaced “redskins” a term which was used to buy scalps of native americans. Gifts of small pox infested blankets were normal. Which I think is what killed the most people. I think the genocide of the native americans is the worst the world has ever seen. Just look up columbus to get a picture of the start. Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a “vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record.” In the 1999 Encyclopedia of Genocide, edited by the scholar Israel Charny, an article by Ward Churchill argues that extermination was the “express objective” of the U.S. government. Native americans were advanced in other areas of science. Medicine 70 percent of the medicine we used today is from native americans.
There was no more evil intent than the intent of taking land/booty/slaves
which were/are pretty evil things to do from my perspective. I then inferred that being involved in those things justified taking lives if there was resistance.The other was the idea that moral posturing against wrongs done has the same base motives as the wrong doing. Reparations are a really tough issue. I think there should be some sort of statute of limitations, but I am admittedly quite biased.
Conquest has a long history. Regardless of if we think it is an illegitimate reason to wage war today, it was quite legitimate until about 100 years ago. I have argued this many times on this forum; moral posturing is for ethicists and philosophers. The task of the historian is to describe, not to judge. At least you admit you are biased; many do not and would have us believe they are presenting a considered opinion or worse, a statement of fact.Bushwick, you did not just seriously quote Ward Churchill as an authority did you?Perhaps an even bigger question is WHY anybody should care about my, your, or anybody else?s opinion of what historical actions were wrong or not. Condemnation does not change the facts and it certainly does nothing to right wrongs 100+ years old. So what is the point of moral dudgeon?
Scout,The point, in my case, is protesting against justification or glorification of past wrongs. When you say the actions were legitimate, you are making a judgment and that judgement is incorrect IMO. Legitimate means "in accordance with the law", which doesn't necessarily mean it is right or good for humanity, and an invasion muddies the waters about what body of law is in effect anyway. However, taking lives and property is usually not in accordance with either body of law (or code of conduct for less formal societies).
Abarnhart,I am not making a judgment when I say that in the eyes of the Europeans their conquest of the Americas was legitimate, it undoubtedly was for them, both legally and morally. Indeed, the first voyages to the Americas were government sponsored and ALL of the colonizing companies received Royal Charters. But we can only speak of what they themselves thought, not what we think. The judgment of the future as to the rightness or wrongness of their actions mattered not to the explorers. They were in pursuit of what they thought were righteous goals. Whether we think the colonizers ruthlessly exploited the natives does not affect the history and it is certainly not the duty of the historian to rail against it. It is for the historian to describe events; anything else is intellectually dishonest and cannot really be called history in my opinion. You are correct in that legitimate means legal; it does not however imply a moral value judgment. Describing the activities of the colonizers does not "glorify" them, it merely describes them.Are you implying that any description of the colonization of the Americas or any other controversial historical era that does not conform to some consensus of right or wrong is in itself wrong or false history? In other words, if I don?t condemn the colonizers then am I just as guilty of wrong as you seem to think they were? If so, what then is the point of history? Because if that is so then historians are not telling the story of events, rather they are propagandizing or indoctrinating their readers into a specific point of view. The historians task is not to tell people how to think but to give them the facts and let them think for themselves.(pounding forehead on wall) Whether I think the conquest of the Americas was right or wrong is irrelevant, my task is to describe what happened.To speak to your last point, what society either historical or present can you name that does or did not engage in violence? Surely not Western society, there is plenty of violence around, that is why we have laws. I cannot think of any society throughout history that does not have a violent component. I should tell you that I am very Hobbesian in my worldview, for some reason when I look around that view is confirmed. It is wishful thinking to believe that violence does not exist in the world around us except for that of evil men. Western society has just managed to largely keep the violence in check to the point where the average person has no direct experience of personal violence; yet it is still there I assure you. Were it not for generally honest police and mostly just legal systems Western society would be just as full of violence as the Middle East, Mexico, or 3rd world hellhole of your choice. In fact, the lack of violence in the West speaks to our collective success as a society. Just because we share these values does not mean the rest of the world does, the evidence itself argues that they do not.
We are in danger of this debate descending into an argument of semantics. ;D
Well, of course we are - the whole topic is semantics. The thread is about whether or not to use a particular term to describe the native people who died at the hands of the conquering forces. The term "Holocaust" is used to describe what happened to Jews in WWII. That term absolutely implies a moral judgement. Sometimes innocent people are slaughtered. Avoiding saying that directly because it implies some moral judgement would make the reporting of history less accurate, not more so (IMO).I have trouble when my idealistic viewpoint meets the reality of the world we live in. As much as I hate war, I know if we were to dissolve our forces tomorrow then I would probably have to learn a new language if I survived more than a few months.I won't beat this to death (since that might be construed as morally wrong by some future generation ;D ). I think we have both stated our contrary opinions and the likelihood of either of us changing is too low to spend much more energy on it.
I have trouble when my idealistic viewpoint meets the reality of the world we live in. As much as I hate war, I know if we were to dissolve our forces tomorrow then I would probably have to learn a new language if I survived more than a few months.I won't beat this to death (since that might be construed as morally wrong by some future generation ;D ). I think we have both stated our contrary opinions and the likelihood of either of us changing is too low to spend much more energy on it.
Both parts of which I can agree with. I am certainly not going to change my position but respectfully believe that you are absolutely allowed to hold yours. Even if I disagree with it.
Skiguy- Jack Weatherford: Indian Givers how the Indians of the America's transformed the world. Is a source of all your questions but all are common facts. Genocide was the question not if its moral and yes it was genocide
Skiguy- Jack Weatherford: Indian Givers how the Indians of the America's transformed the world. Is a source of all your questions but all are common facts.
In just reading this book review from wikipedia there's a few errors of judgement."the United States Constitution was directly influenced by the Iroquois Confederacy""many ideas of the Age of Enlightenment were simply observations of the Pre-Columbian peoples ""gves a brief overview of how the Europeans were so able to conquer the equally advanced civilizations they found on the American continents" I wonder if he mentions the cannibalism, human sacrifices, inter-tribal warfare (before and after Europeans came), and how the Indians made necklaces of colonists's fingers.
genocide was the question not if its moral and yes it was genocide
It was not genocide, it was conquest...huge difference.
As to the Iroquois Confederacy input to the constitution you may want to look at this Ski: House Resolution from the 100th Congress H.Con.Res. 331 Now let me be on record as saying that I dont think that just because Congress says something is so does not necessarily mean it is so. I have never read or heard anything from a credible historian that says our Constitution is based on the principles of the Iroquois Confederacy. Quite the contrary everything I know says it is based on Enlightenment principles and not Indian tribal governance methods. I could be wrong here, but highly doubt it.
Thanks scout. I stand corrected (maybe) on that one thing. But to say Franklin and others admired or acknowledged someting is different than direct influence. Besides, this resolution is referred to the Indian Affairs Committee, so a little “selling” was probably added.
Given that the resolution was passed in 1988 I am not too impressed. Now, if it had been passed by say the first or second Congress when some of the framers were still in office, then I would attach a lot more credibility to it than I do.