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I hesitate to begin this as the subject is delicate and there has been so much written about it that oftenit is impossible to conduct a rational dialogue without opening old wounds and causing a great deal of acrimony. To remain a bit neutral let me pose it as a thesis and see if anyone agrees.Hitler loathed the Jews and blamed them for much of what was wrong in Germany and the world. He made this very clear in his speeches and writings prior to 1933 when he became Chancellor. His aimwas not to kill all the Jews, but to rid Germany of them as he considered them as lice--parasites on thenation and unable to assimilate. He would have been delighted if every Jew in Germany left and went to another place making Germany Judenfrei. All of the subsequent events from 1933 to 1945 concerning theelimination of the Jews in Germany and the occupied territories in the east were a result of the fact thatneither Hitler nor the Jews were able to find an exit solution. Had the other nations been willing to takeall of the Jews of Germany, it is quite likely that exit visas would have been generously granted.This does not take into consideration of the other groups that the Nazi's marked for elimination--mentaldefectives, habitual criminals, gypsies and others.The conquest of Poland in 1939 overwhelmed the Germans as there were about 5 million addition undesirables to contend with and with a war on there was no way to export them.The Holocaust, according to this thesis, was a result of an inability to deal with a problem and staywithin the guidelines followed in a civilized and lawful society.That Hitler was a beast, a monster and an amoral bohemian are uncontested. That he planned for theelimination of the Jews through mass murder is more of a problem to prove. The fact that that is theway it happened is not proof that it is the way he intended.Comments would be appreciated and I am not Jewish.
Interesting question and I do not have an academic answer for it based on concrete knowledge. My cursory knowledge would say that what you say is possible, inasmuch as the decision to exterminate the Jews en masse may have been made as the war got going. Actually, this seems plausible given the dating of the “Final Solution” to 1942.As to whether Hitler wanted merely wanted to make Germany "Jew-free", thereby relegating his plan to a simple "migration" program - that may have been the case early on before his power became such where he could wield it without fear of obstruction. But all this really would say is that as Hitler's power grew in Germany, so did his maltreatment of the Jews.The apologia that you present makes it sound like Hitler was backed into a corner from the influx of so many Jews, and that as a result he was left with no real way to deal with the situation than by exterminating them. I don't think you meant it as such, but I could see Hitler apologists arguing as much. I think that would be seriously erroneous in any way you look at it, especially since the "problem" the F?hrer faced was of his own making.
So all that rubbish about creating a “Master Race” is just that rubbish? If Hitler wanted to establish the Aryan Race (whatever the heck he thought that to be….blond haired blue eyed folks etc…), what did he intend to do with the non Aryan races? Just a question.
The Holocaust, according to this thesis, was a result of an inability to deal with a problem and stay within the guidelines followed in a civilized and lawful society.
I would find this to be quite problematic as well. Even if we suppose, for the sake of argument, that forced removal of an ethnic group were still within the bounds of "civilized and lawful society", how is the logical next step in this progression the extermination of that ethnic group?
You have to make a distinction between Jews and inferior races such as Slavs. Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany by whatever means were possible. The other inferior races, once Lebensraum had been acquired, were to be helots for the German master race. I do not think Hitler particularly cared how the Jews were to be ousted from Germany and I have good reason to believe that as the policy and the warprogressed he became less and less concerned with methodology.My point is that Hitler wanted a Aryan hegemony in a state with no Jews, but with lots of inferior races tohew wood and draw water. Think of the ante bellum south in the USA in 1859.Aryan master race--blue eyed blond beasts--check out photos of Hitler and friends--hardly fit the phenotype. I wonder how the scholars who got doctorates in racial studies handled that?
You have to make a distinction between Jews and inferior races such as Slavs. Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany by whatever means were possible. The other inferior races, once Lebensraum had been acquired, were to be helots for the German master race. I do not think Hitler particularly cared how the Jews were to be ousted from Germany and I have good reason to believe that as the policy and the warprogressed he became less and less concerned with methodology.My point is that Hitler wanted a Aryan hegemony in a state with no Jews, but with lots of inferior races tohew wood and draw water. Think of the ante bellum south in the USA in 1859.Aryan master race--blue eyed blond beasts--check out photos of Hitler and friends--hardly fit the phenotype. I wonder how the scholars who got doctorates in racial studies handled that?
Jews were at the bottom of Hitler's racial totem pole with the Slavs just above them. He didn't want Jews hewing wood anywhere in the world, he wanted them eliminated from the face of the earth. Adolph Eichmann developed the means to accomplish this, and Hitler could have refused it at any time if it was too horrendous to him, but he didn't. I think Hitler's intentions were clear. The big problem I have is, how can you get an entire nation to go along with this kind of madness?
Donald Baker:I know of no source that would support your contention that Hitler intended or desired to eliminate the Jews from the face of the earth! He surely would not mind if this happened, but I recall no book or article that would lead me to agree with your view. Out of Germany--sure--out of territories occupied by Germans--sure again, but elsewhere--I think not. Perhaps Hitler was either limited or realistic in his thinking. We were taught in school that he wanted to conquer the world--how silly--he was not a youngman in 1933 and by 1945 he was a wreck.Anti-semitism was not just a German phenomenon as many nations of Europe were openly hostile toJews even if they no longer persecuted them. Even here ,in my lifetime, there were clubs, schools,sports associations, hotels and housing developments that discriminated against Jews as well as Blacks,Orientals, Mexicans and the swarthy races until court cases ended the practices.I would appreciate any citation you might be able to send. Please understand I am not a David Irvingfan and agree that the Holocaust did take place and was probably even worse than we have been told.I just do not think that Hitler, a lazy and slothful creature by nature, was a long range thinker when it came to the eventual disposition of the Jews. "Just get them out and let me eat my little cakes."
Donald Baker:History is replete with cases where the government forcibly moved people. Stalin did it with Russiansof German ancestry, we did it with Japanese and Indians and contemplated doing it with slaves prior to the civil war. The British did it in South Africa and I could probably come up with many more if I took the time. Why--reasons of state. Getting the people to go along with it is easy--play on their prejudices,call them non-patriots if they object, lie, let them loot the wealth of the dispossed or give them a glimpse of the iron fist in the iron glove.WHATEVER HAPPENS WE HAVE GOTTHE MAXIM GUN AND THEY HAVE NOT
I read this twice and still come up with zero concerning Hitler's supposed desire to eliminate the Jews from the face of the earth. I shall look again, but it would be much easier if you could give me some guidance–please–citation!? I should point out that my memory is deteriorating rapidly so you might well be correct.
I read this twice and still come up with zero concerning Hitler's supposed desire to eliminate the Jews from the face of the earth. I shall look again, but it would be much easier if you could give me some guidance--please--citation!? I should point out that my memory is deteriorating rapidly so you might well be correct.
You have only read the abridged version as the whole work is forbidden to be sold.
Why do we even need a source? The man publicly stated over and over again that he hated Jews and that they were conspiring to take over the world and had to be stopped ad nauseum. Would he telegraph his plans to his victims? How would that work out? “Hey, Jews! When I come to power, I'm going to build Auschwitz and Treblinka to gas you to oblivion! Muhahahahaha!!!!” I'm sure he would have been taken seriously at that point.
Here is what I know.Hitler was convinced that the Jews were evil, the cause of much misery and had to be eliminated fromGerman society.Hitler would have been content if they all just left or somehow just disappeared.In February 1933 Hitler had no plans to conquer the World, to kill all the Jews or to build gas chambers.Here is what you do not know.What edition of his book I read or whether I read the second volume. (I did along with Table Talk.)There are many volumes and translations of his first book and in many languages. Were I not constrained I would dig out my copy and let you know.Again, I am not defending him--he was a horrid man. I am just illustrating that some of what we weretold may in fact not ring true when subjected to the harsh light of historical criticism.
Well at a quick Google, I found this.Based on what this guy says, the order was directly from Hitler, and it was verbal (hence no paper trail).
I read your post very carefully. I did not see any reference to a world-wide slaughter of the Jews. I did see this–which I agree is plausible: “But in addition to that, these individuals would have been aware of Goering's order for the administrative work to be done towards an “aspired” final solution. Everyone knew that a final solution – a decision to annihilate all of European Jewry – could only be made by Hitler. And Hitler was legendary for hesitating, at times with almost disastrous effects, when faced with grave decisions, such as the Roehm Purge, the Munich Crisis and whether to run in the presidential election of 1932. [10] It would be entirely in keeping with Hitler's personality if he hesitated several months after ordering the Einsatzgruppen shootings – a kind of pre-final solution – before he could bring himself to make the ultimate decision. Goering's order notwithstanding, there was little concrete action that Heydrich could take until there was a definitive decision from the man at the top. And the man at the top did not decide until December 1941.”The victims--European Jews and the decision--1941--would seem to support the thesis I proposed: To wit:In February of 1933 Hitler had no aspirations to kill all the Jews, but a strong desire to see them oustedfrom Germany by various means. After the death of Hindenburg and the passage of the "Enabling Act" his ability to overcome legal niceties was enhanced, but again I stress, I find no evidence to support yourstatement that Hitler wanted the Jewish race wiped from the face of the earth--his earth--yes--the earth--no. Are you aware of the somewhat odd arrangement the Nazis had with the Jews vis a vis emigrationto Palestine? Apparently exit visas could be obtained for a price which permitted Jews to go there withthe only limits being fiscal in Germany and politically (with the British who held the Mandate in Palestine).One final fillip: It seems to me that if Hitler had died of a stroke in February 1939 and was succeeded bysomeone who was a more traditional leader, please do not ask me for a name, he would have had avery long list of accomplishments, the holocaust would be an unimaginable horror and statues of him would stand in every German town to this day with an inscription that might read:TO OUR BELOVED LEADER, ADOLPH HITLER, WHO UNITED THE GERMAN PEOPLE AND RESTORED OURPRIDE IN OURSELVES. MAY HE BE REMEMBERED WITH AFFECTION FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.His bothersome preoccupation with the Jews would be a very minor thing.Does this sound far fetched?WillyD
