If I say Kaiser Wilhelm II was a great German emperor, that is a judgment. But what about when I back up that judgment with facts? You can still disagree with my judgment but in order to do so you must show relevant facts of your own. That is how the great debates in history get started. History would be extremely boring if everybody agreed all the time.
No professor I have studied under would allow such a statement in a serious paper. They would run a big red ink line over it and say "unnecessary" or "editorializing" or "not relevant" etc....Kaiser Wilhelm II was a German emperor, a significant one for his role in the rise of German colonial expansionism, but that's about all that would be allowable to say.
I am not going to get into the historical method argument with you. We agree significantly but in some areas we disagree fundamentally and this is one of them One of the worst things about most histories is that they are so dry that no one wants to read them. History can be both good and informative, sadly it is often neither because of the dryness of most historical scholarship. What you call editorializing is no more than a judgment call within an interpretation. I chose the example I did as just that, an example. History is more than a dry recitation of names, dates, and places. The judgment calls come into play when talking cause and effect.
I think that something should be said about different groups of professors having different cares about writing styles. The two of you aren't even in the same historical subfield, and I could see the scenario in which professors with specialty X expect one way of writing, and professors with specialty Y are less strict about what they expect.
My professors come from Duke, Rice, Virginia, Maryland, Wisconsin, University of Washington, Princeton, and Oxford (these are the most prominent influences). They all pretty much agree in the writing style I've been taught. Some are young and some are old so it's also across generational lines. European scholars might be different, but I've not had too many from overseas.
My professors have come from UNC, UNT, Harvard, Noter Dame, and Duke. I think Phid has hit on something, maybe it is the different areas of history that we study. It is difficult to describe a campaign or battle without making some judgment calls as to why a side won or lost. It is not always a matter of the ratio of casualties.
I wasn't talking about making a case for or against why one side lost, only adjectives that call so and so “great” when it can be debated and is of no real significance to the content whether he was great or not.
I agree that “great” may be too subjective of a word to use (depending on the context) when one wants to provide an objective assessment. I personally would be uncomfortable being a “cheerleader” for someone or something by the way I describe them, and I don't like hearing other papers which try to cheerlead values which are subjective. But I do think there is some wiggle room For example:Among Charlemagne's greatest feats was... (I think this is fine)Charlemagne was the greatest of the Carolingian rulers... (could be ok given support)Charlemagne's greatness was due to his... (this usage is suspect)
I agree that "great" may be too subjective of a word to use (depending on the context) when one wants to provide an objective assessment. I personally would be uncomfortable being a "cheerleader" for someone or something by the way I describe them, and I don't like hearing other papers which try to cheerlead values which are subjective. But I do think there is some wiggle room For example:Among Charlemagne's greatest feats was... (I think this is fine)Charlemagne was the greatest of the Carolingian rulers... (could be ok given support)Charlemagne's greatness was due to his... (this usage is suspect)
This is okay, but I would use "most important" or "more significant" or "noteworthy" feats etc....
Among Charlemagne's greatest feats was... (I think this is fine)Charlemagne was the greatest of the Carolingian rulers... (could be ok given support)Charlemagne's greatness was due to his... (this usage is suspect)
This is okay, but I would use "most important" or "more significant" or "noteworthy" feats etc....
True...the words you suggest are more specific and descriptive (and objective-sounding) than "greatest" or "greatness".
So you are arguing semantics, which adjective is most appropriate? I think I can agree with that although I think the issue is actually rather trivial.
Even this isn't good, but I would rather see “Charlemagne, considered by many to be the greatest leader…” instead of (as was a similar case in my textbook) “Charlemagne, the greatest leader….”Instead of telling the reader he is the greatest, at least by adding "considered by many" this still leaves it open for the individual reader to judge.
Even this isn't good, but I would rather see "Charlemagne, considered by many to be the greatest leader..." instead of (as was a similar case in my textbook) "Charlemagne, the greatest leader...."Instead of telling the reader he is the greatest, at least by adding "considered by many" this still leaves it open for the individual reader to judge.
Yeah but Charley was quite tall for that time !! (6 feet 3 inches, or 190.50 centimeters)
Instead of telling the reader he is the greatest, at least by adding "considered by many" this still leaves it open for the individual reader to judge.
I'm cutting hairs here a bit, but to be technical, it could be problematic to say "considered by many...". To illustrate, it may be true that "many consider Hitler to be the greatest leader ever..." because a hundred people, a thousand may think this. Nevermind the millions who don't think this. But technically the original statement could be true.I personally don't mind some arguably subjective statements if they are inconsequential or not worth arguing about. Even a statement like "Charlemagne's most noteworthy accomplishment..." entails some level of subjectivity because we don't have a quantifiable or objective standard of what connotes "noteworthiness". However, we're not robots, so we understand that the writer is putting forth an educated view based on his research. We trust his research, we trust the publisher who put his research into print, and so forth. True, the writer inserts his own opinions about Charlemagne's career, but hopefully they're backed up by facts that correspond to our own subjective dispositions. In the end I don't think it's an exact science and there can always be some debate about whether a writer is objective enough.
I'm cutting hairs here a bit, but to be technical, it could be problematic to say "considered by many...".
What about something like "according to this historian...." and then contrasting it with another historian's point of view? I'm thinking of doing that in my paper. It may be the subject I'm writing about though. In one case, the Irish historian is so obviously biased that I am trying to contrast it with the views of a British and/or more contemporary historian.