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I don't have an issue that the Olympic Games were not the first formal athletic competions, after all, the Greeks did borrow from and were influenced by other cultures, but I do have a problem with some of his “evidence” for his thesis as well as his implication that the Olympic Games were not of high importance to Greek and Western culture. Curious what you folks think.The Mesopotamian origins of the Olympic Games by David ChiboIt's a long read, and as far as I know, a lot of his stuff is accurate. But if you navigate the website, you'll find the author appears to have an anti-Western bias.Two things I found inaccurate in his thesis:The second chart up from the bottom shows a copmparison between the events of the Gilgamesh Games and the Olympic Games. However, in the Olympics there were no jousting or acrobatic competitions and I have found no evidence yet of archery, not in the early games anyway. (proof available upon request).Also, he mentions the year 776 BC as being incorrect based on
The lead archaeologist at the site of Olympia site, Alfred Mallwitz boldly argued against the traditional ?refounding? date, of 776 BC. Siting archaeological evidence of stadium wells, he explains how ??we cannot doubt that in Olympia the Games did not begin until 700 [BC].? Mallwitz finally estimates that they took place at 704 BC, a date in harmony with the beginning of the wells. (61)
but historical records (with specific names of victors and years...see Pindar et. al.) and archeological evidence shows that 776 BC was highly likely. He might have been correct if he stated the Olympiad (4 year cycle) didn't start until 700-ish BC, but it doesn't appear he's saying that.By the way, I'm glad I found something like this to work with because it's sort of an anti thesis.
Firstly stop talking like one of George Bush's speech writers and applying anti-Western labels on anyone that doesn't agree with your point of view. This is especially disheartening for someone who signs off with a quote from an Irish General. The Irish much like the Middle Easterners today were a conquered people who were conquered not only militarily but culturally. Their history was also distorted and revised by the British to diminish them as a people. Now as for the Gilgamesh Games, the chart you mention you are correct in stating that there was no jousting or acrobatic competitions in the first ancient Olympic Games. Perhaps a more accurate and inclusive description of the last column should be pan-Hellenic Games and include both ancient and modern games. The main problem is that as the Greeks were on the borders of the ancient Assyrian empire the higher culture gradually percolated into Greece where it was adopted and hellenised. The first Olympics as the paper states may have begun as a running race with no spectators around 776 BC and then gradually have grown with extra athletic events and competitiors until it became a professionaly organised event by around 704 BC as Mallowitz claims.Finally by calling it an anti-thesis you also fall into the misleading Orientalism framework that has misled countless of historians before you. Maths, science, religion, techynology, writing are already knwon to have begun in the Middle East, however law, women rights, philosophy, democracy and athletics can today finally be traced back to the their original precursors in the Middle East.Either way thank you for critiquing my thesis. It's great that a student such as yourself is daring to challenge conventional wisdom and explore areas of our shared civilisation that are considered "sacred cows."
Firstly stop talking like one of George Bush's speech writers and applying anti-Western labels on anyone that doesn't agree with your point of view.
Actually, the reason I did that is because, in scanning the website, I notice things like "the myth of western civilization" are mentioned. To me that sounds anti-western.
Perhaps a more accurate and inclusive description of the last column should be pan-Hellenic Games and include both ancient and modern games. The main problem is that as the Greeks were on the borders of the ancient Assyrian empire the higher culture gradually percolated into Greece where it was adopted and hellenised. The first Olympics as the paper states may have begun as a running race with no spectators around 776 BC and then gradually have grown with extra athletic events and competitiors until it became a professionaly organised event by around 704 BC as Mallowitz claims.
I don't disagree the Greeks borrowed, perhaps even heavily, from Oriental and Near Eastern customs. I'm just questioning some of the facts presented. It's likely the first Olympic type competitions in Greece were held earlier than the 8th century. Pausanias mentions that the 9th century King Iphitus of Elis consulted an Oracle on how to stop the wars in Greece. The answer given was to restore the Olympic games and declare a truce for their duration. This implies the games were earlier than 776 BC, the year of the first recorded games. Of course Pausanias may or may not be accurate, King Iphitus is sort of a shadowy figure, but there is evidence of growing cult and religious activity in the Olympia area prior to 776, as well as objects depicting chariot races dated around 850-800 BC.
Finally by calling it an anti-thesis you also fall into the misleading Orientalism framework that has misled countless of historians before you. Maths, science, religion, techynology, writing are already knwon to have begun in the Middle East, however law, women rights, philosophy, democracy and athletics can today finally be traced back to the their original precursors in the Middle East.Either way thank you for critiquing my thesis. It's great that a student such as yourself is daring to challenge conventional wisdom and explore areas of our shared civilisation that are considered "sacred cows."
Thank you. I called it an anti-thesis because I was defending the thesis of my paper which was the importance and Greek-ness of the Panhellenic games. Yours seemed to lessen that importance, but I could be wrong. I haven't ignored any contributions from the Middle East when it comes to math, science, or human rights and philosophies, it's just that's not what my paper was about.Welcome aboard and hope you contribute more.
Actually, the reason I did that is because, in scanning the website, I notice things like “the myth of western civilization” are mentioned. To me that sounds anti-western.
My contention is that the concept of a purely isolated Western civilisation is a myth. This myth was in fact crystalised during the age of European Empires when much of the globe lay at the Western world's feet. They selectively cherry picked attributes of our shared civilisation and attributed them to the Western Greeks conveniently ignoring the wellspring of civilisation in the Middle East. Western history was created to suit European imperial ambitions and was used as a tool of cultural conquest. Elements of this very same cultural conquest were also present in the phrenology, a now debunked science that claimed that Africans and other people of the developed world were inferior due to their measurement of their foreheads. Today however we can all rightly claim that we are all genetically equal and our genetics trace back to Africa where our human family began its first migration.So the concept of a purely Western, or for that matter purely Eastern civilisation has been debunked forever. Civilisation much like genetics cannot be categorised in such a retrograde way.
It's likely the first Olympic type competitions in Greece were held earlier than the 8th century. Pausanias mentions that the 9th century King Iphitus of Elis consulted an Oracle on how to stop the wars in Greece. The answer given was to restore the Olympic games and declare a truce for their duration.
Pausanias wrote during the second century at the time of the Roman Empire. He naturally embelished much of the Greek customs and culture in order to win favour and acclaim from his Roman overlords. It also doesn't matter if the Olympic games were held in 8th century or the 9th century as the Sumerian, Babylonian and even Hittite Games clearly precede them.
Of course Pausanias may or may not be accurate, King Iphitus is sort of a shadowy figure, but there is evidence of growing cult and religious activity in the Olympia area prior to 776, as well as objects depicting chariot races dated around 850-800 BC.
Mallowitz the lead archaeologist at Olympia disputes that contention siting archaedological evidence of stadium wells. Please post original sources for this evidence as I would also like to learn more about the Olympics prior to 776BC.
I called it an anti-thesis because I was defending the thesis of my paper which was the importance and Greek-ness of the Panhellenic games. Yours seemed to lessen that importance, but I could be wrong. I
The Gilgamesh Games stresses cultural continuity not Occidentalism. In seeking to trace ack to the root sources of our combined culture we not only unite our disparate warring nations and people, but we extract a more clearer meaning behind our cultuiral practices. i.e. Annual funerary games conducted to honor the dead and King Gilgamesh.
This myth was in fact crystalised during the age of European Empires when much of the globe lay at the Western world's feet. They selectively cherry picked attributes of our shared civilisation and attributed them to the Western Greeks conveniently ignoring the wellspring of civilisation in the Middle East. Western history was created to suit European imperial ambitions and was used as a tool of cultural conquest.
Nice talking point, but this passage alone points to an anti-western bias in your opinions. You are more than free to have your opinions. However, I find it strange that you immediately go on the offensive and in the process indict western civilisation as a whole as being shallow cultural plunderers. I am waiting for you to claim that the west never invented anything worthwhile and anything good that did come out of the west was really due to eastern influences.
Pausanias wrote during the second century at the time of the Roman Empire. He naturally embelished much of the Greek customs and culture in order to win favour and acclaim from his Roman overlords.
Is this historical fact or opinion?Lastly, I find it odd that you give credit to wikipedia as an authoritative source on your site here and then expect us or the world to take you seriously. I have waxed eloquent on the shortcomings of wikipedia in a couple of threads: here and here Lastly, I cannot think of any University in the US or Abroad that is willing to accept a citation from wikipedia. At my own school, citing wikipedia is enough to cause a deduction of one letter grade in the assignment in which it was cited. For the simple reason that wikipedia is unreliable as a source.
I don't know enough about the pre-Greek Mesopotamian athletic competitions and origins but I have great interest in this. I haven't looked enough at your sources yet except that one about Olympia. I'm also NOT saying the Gilgamesh Games were unimportant. The Greek games were important because they were one of the few things that united the city-states. The Sacred Truce was huge and respected by all Greeks…even during the Peloponnesian War. Just curious, is there anything like that recorded for the games in Mesopotamia or where these competitions only between allied states or even perhaps held by, for, and in one state? Who competed in the games? Was it all citizens or just upper class? Is there an unbroken, thousand year long historical record of athletic competition? Archeological evidence that answers these questions is quite scant is it not?
Mallowitz the lead archaeologist at Olympia disputes that contention siting archaedological evidence of stadium wells. Please post original sources for this evidence as I would also like to learn more about the Olympics prior to 776BC.
One thing about the Olympia cite, floods have devastated the area, so archeology is difficult at best. I'll get back at the sources disputing his water well claim. It's in the books "Ancient Greek Athletics" by Stephen Miller (a lead archeologist at the Nimean games cite) and "Ancient Olympics" by Nigel Spivey. Besides, just because there weren't water wells, doesn't mean there weren't competitions. Water wells have only been found found near paleastras and gymnasiums. Those two structures were built after the games were more organized and athletes resided there.Yes, Pausanias wrote all this much later. He was describing the inscription to Iphitus found inside the Temple of Zeus. Pausanias may have embellished, but he is also one of the best sources we have for descriptions of Olympia and even some of the athletes who competed. He should not be dismissed just because he embellished some, IMO. And what about Pindar, Lysias, and Aristotle, to name a few, who made references to the games?
In seeking to trace ack to the root sources of our combined culture we not only unite our disparate warring nations and people, but we extract a more clearer meaning behind our cultuiral practices. i.e. Annual funerary games conducted to honor the dead and King Gilgamesh
But I have to ask, 2500+ years later which games are emulated throughout the world from Los Angeles to Moscow to Beijing for their symbolic sense of diplomacy, international cooperation, and fairness in competition? (well, that's looking past the judging and drug scandals that have plagued the games recently ;D )
Elements of this very same cultural conquest were also present in the phrenology, a now debunked science that claimed that Africans and other people of the developed world were inferior due to their measurement of their foreheads. Today however we can all rightly claim that we are all genetically equal and our genetics trace back to Africa where our human family began its first migration.
All or most of this racist crap is from 18th and 19th century British historians. You're right, this was debunked,and it is no longer used by many of today's historians. However, this doesn't mean that everything they say about other topics is false. One just has to be careful when reading these older historians. British imperialism had both good and bad points. Not to change the subject, but how do you reconcile all these accusations of victimhood (i.e. European imperialism over non-western cultures) by British imperialism over the Irish or German imperialism over other European nations? The British viewed not only Africans and Indians, but also the Irish people as racially and culturally inferior. I'm sure there are many racists who still think along these lines, but I don't think there are many honest historians around who do.
Nice talking point, but this passage alone points to an anti-western bias in your opinions. You are more than free to have your opinions. However, I find it strange that you immediately go on the offensive and in the process indict western civilisation as a whole as being shallow cultural plunderers. I am waiting for you to claim that the west never invented anything worthwhile and anything good that did come out of the west was really due to eastern influences.
I do not indict Western civilisation as it does not exist. I indict the Western historians who have selectively divided Western and Eastern civilisation much like their theory of Eugenics and Phrenology attempted to divide and categorise people by their racial characteristics.
Lastly, I find it odd that you give credit to wikipedia as an authoritative source on your site here and then expect us or the world to take you seriously. I have waxed eloquent on the shortcomings of wikipedia in a couple of threads: here and here Lastly, I cannot think of any University in the US or Abroad that is willing to accept a citation from wikipedia. At my own school, citing wikipedia is enough to cause a deduction of one letter grade in the assignment in which it was cited. For the simple reason that wikipedia is unreliable as a source.
I used wikipedia only for its definition of Orientalism, as I found it quite accurate. The Gilgamesh games thesis on the other hand is based on original cuneiform source documents and has been reviewed by Assyriologist Professor Simo Parpola.
I indict the Western historians who have selectively divided Western and Eastern civilisation much like their theory of Eugenics and Phrenology attempted to divide and categorise people by their racial characteristics.
Did I really just read you equate the division of the study of civilisation into eastern and western branches with eugenics and racism? The division nto western and eastern civilisations is a convenient device but by no means definitive. I think you would be hard pressed to find any serious academic who thinks the division has any more meaning than as a method of dividing study. Or is this subtle racism you are talking about? The kind you just have to be attuned to?
But I have to ask, 2500+ years later which games are emulated throughout the world from Los Angeles to Moscow to Beijing for their symbolic sense of diplomacy, international cooperation, and fairness in competition? (well, that's looking past the judging and drug scandals that have plagued the games recently )
They only emulation is in the name of the games. Everything else differs widly. Today's games are a corporate dominated mass media advertising campaign designed mainly for the developed world to show off against other nations in retrograde "survival of the fitest" athletics. Using government funding, corporate funding and illegal drugs the ranking of the nations usually mirror the world economic and military power structure.This is in stark contrast to the ancient Greek Olympics which were a pan-Hellenic event meant to unite the Greek states. These in turn differe greatly from the pan-Mesopotamian Gilgamesh Games that were funerary events conducted annualy to appease the dead King Gilgamesh - who returned from the netherworld to take his place as a judge in his statue - and receive immortality.My point is that the further back we go to the root of our modern shared civilisation, the more deeper and meaningful the root story behind it becomes.
These in turn differe greatly from the pan-Mesopotamian Gilgamesh Games that were funerary events conducted annualy to appease the dead King Gilgamesh - who returned from the netherworld to take his place as a judge in his statue - and receive immortality.
Do you have more information or sources on the Gilgamesh Games being pan-Mesopatamian? What were the rules of some of the events like wrestling or boxing? Who could compete? Free citizens? Anybody?
Do you have more information or sources on the Gilgamesh Games being pan-Mesopatamian? What were the rules of some of the events like wrestling or boxing? Who could compete? Free citizens? Anybody?
Very briefly, the athletic games began under the Sumerian god Ninurta (3000-2340 BC) at Nippur and were gradually adopted by his son Gilgamesh who took over the festival of Abu as occurs in a cultic calendar dating from post-Old Babylonian times (1800 BC). It appears to have been adopted by the Hittites around 1600 BC who held their own version of the Gilgamesh games.There was also evidence at with evidence of the Gilgamesh Games at the ancient Assyrian capital of Ashur approximately 850 BC.Geographically archaeological evidence of athletic games especially wrestling hves also been found at Badra, Sinkara (Larsa) and Khafaji all cities in Iraq. Whether these were part of the Gilgamesh games festival or part of other pan-Mesopotamian althetic festivals is still not known.This paragraph is taken from the thesis:In fact four hundred years after Homer wrote the Iliad and following in the tradition of Gilgamesh and Achilles, Alexander the Great, during his military campaigns, also mourned the death of his friend Hephaistion with similar extravagant funerary games in 324 BC in the heart of Mesopotamia, at Babylon , in which about 3000 athletes took part.These all outline a tradition that began under the Sumerians and continued right up to the arrival of Alexander the Great.In regards to the athletes it appears as though the GG only had youtng men compete. There is evidence of gymnasiums where they trained and specific dietary requirements. Women meanwhile appear to have performed/competed in festivals for Ishtar.
