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Osirus and Dionysius are not the same god, Plutarch, Herodotus, and Diodorus are saying they are based on the same ideas and fill the same function.
Really? It seems quite clear they are saying the two are the same, and not just based on the same idea."There is only the difference in names between the festivals of Bacchus and those of Osiris, between the Mysteries of Isis and those of Demeter." - Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 1.13"It is proper to identify Osiris with Dionysos." - Plutarch, On Isis and Osiris, 28"Osiris, they say, was reared in Nysa, a city of Arabia Felix near Egypt, being a son of Zeus; and the name which he bears among the Greeks is derived both from his father and from the birthplace, since he is called Dionysos." - Diodorus Siculus 1.15"Osiris is he who is called Dionysos in the Greek tongue." - Herodotus 2.144
Don't you see that these authors are trying to legitimize their own gods knowing that the Egyptians' gods were much older? Do we have Egyptian sources claiming the same thing? Unless it was unanimous that both cultures recognized their gods being the same, then they aren't the same. Is there some syncretism going on here? Sure, and especially in the Isis, Cybele, and Demeter goddess. But not Dionysus and Osirus. If you believe this then you have to believe that Jesus is also another reincarnation of the Osirus myth and that angels were borrowed from Zoroastrianism or that Hercules, Samson, and Gilgamesh are all one and the same and so on. Furthermore, how could Osirus be a son of Zeus? Wouldn't that eradicate the original Osirus myth created by the Egyptians? What you have here is a remarkably outlandish claim by Diodorus and Herodotus that can't possibly be true....why? Because they're reason for saying so is to make Greek society measure up to what they revere in the much older and more established culture of Egypt.
Phid, that would work as long as both sides present valid sources to back up their arguments and opinions (instead of having to be asked 2 or 3 times..ahem cough cough). Example: Donnie said
What you have here is a remarkably outlandish claim by Diodorus and Herodotus that can't possibly be true
OK, fine. But I'm sorry, all I see this as is just your opinion and nothing more because you didn't back it up with any source whatsoever. What have you read or what have you learned that makes you say something like this? What's your proof that these are nothing more than just outlandish claims? If I'm wrong about the gods not being the same, then show the source you used to form your opinion. We are talking only about the Egyptian and Greek gods. If the Greeks believed (key word) that some of their gods were the same as Egyptian gods, then that's the way it is (to them). When talking about religion or peoples' belief systems logic sometimes doesn't cut it. Bringing up Jesus or our beliefs is just changing the subject, IMO. About the Trojans: I'm not going to say if one way or the other is correct, I lean heavily towards the Trojans not being Greeks, and presented evidence (beyond just my opinion) for my argument. Hopefully all of us here are aware that whatever side one takes cannot be proven anyway...well, not yet. It is my understanding that they've only found written references to Troy, in the Hittite language, in surrounding areas but nothing at the Troy site. Now if they find Linear B writing (or ANY writing) at Troy, then perhaps I'll change my mind. But until then, my hypothesis is the Trojans of Homer's Iliad were not Greeks. I need a PhD in Ancient History, I have to go there. This is driving me up a wall. ;D
Ken, When I have more time, I'll overload you with whatever sources you need. What I presented should have been obvious from the source material even you cited. I assure you the Trojans were Greek as Dowden and many others including the Iliad itself proves. I'm not even going to waste more time on that issue as I feel it has been sufficiently proven.As for the Dionysus/Osirus business, I suppose I'll have to spend an hour or two compiling sources. I've been replying on the fly as I'm in and out of the house all day long and will be working the next two days (12 hour shifts each) so be patient. I simply think you are misreading Herodotus and Diodorus (by misreading you are taking their words at face value when you need to stop and see they have an agenda behind their assertions). Also, I must confess I am not familiar with your sources as they are not the ones I have read before....meaning these guys are either new to the scene or are lesser known sources. So let me rummage in my basement and get out my books so that I can put this baby to rest once and for all. Deal? 🙂
