Don't get me wrong, I don't take personal offense. You are correct, it is way too easy to misread somebody when all you see is words on a screen. The body language is missing, which can sometimes be good and sometimes bad. My rant expressed my frustrations with my apparent inability to get my point across not any personal animus towards you.
The early modern Europeans destroyed Roman culture and civilization (hence the dark ages). I would say Western Civilization probably began when the Church consolidated power. Perhaps Charlemegne.
The Dark Ages were not dark, that is why they are not called the Dark Ages anymore but rather the early Medieval period or Early Middle Ages, take your pick. It is a common misconception that all learning was lost and somehow rediscovered, that is simply not true.
The Dark Ages were not dark, that is why they are not called the Dark Ages anymore but rather the early Medieval period or Early Middle Ages, take your pick. It is a common misconception that all learning was lost and somehow rediscovered, that is simply not true.
I suppose you had the Byzantines still thriving, but Western Europe was indeed dark, very dark. That is why Roman infrastructure rotted and there is very little left from the period. The only learning going on was by the monks and sponsored by the Church. If it weren't for the monks spending their lives copying texts, it may yet to be "rediscovered".
The Dark Ages were not dark, that is why they are not called the Dark Ages anymore but rather the early Medieval period or Early Middle Ages, take your pick.
I believe Athens is the father of our sciences, mother of western civilization and parent of democracy, because they did something unique. That something unique was to move us away from superstition and in the direction of secular science. It was the way they coded information that made all the difference. While all the world believed in Gods, the philosophers of Athens took this concept a step further. They concluded, reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifest by speech.Before this conclusion, like everyone else, Greeks were ruled by people of power, who ruled by whim. Even the God of the Hebrews rules by whim, depending on if he is pleased or not. But the Greek philosophers understanding of the controlling principle, meant even the gods were subject to this controlling principle of the universe. To really get a good understanding of this important difference, it is helpful to read Cicero, a Roman statesman, and his explanation of "right reason". "Right reason" is knowledge of the controlling principle of the universe. What we might call cause and effect. This turn man away from superstitious notions, to a study nature to the determine the causes of effects. Everything we are taught to value, including our sense of liberty and justice, depends on this unique way of thinking of our reality. This turns our minds from the established east to the new west.
Athena, welcome to the forum! 🙂 It sounds like you view religiously-based jurisprudence as detrimental to governance, and secular (Athenian-style) democracy as being superior (please correct me if I am mis-stating your position). I can see how this could be the case in some instances, but do you think it applies across the board? I say this because there were obviously highly successful civilizations in the ancient world in which religion and state were intertwined. In fact, it even seems that Athens was not immune to this; even today, we see remnants of the Parthenon in the city, a religious structure which was given a priority in its construction and influenced Greek political relations. The success of the religiously-based civilizations seems to indicate that either a) their religious understanding did not necessarily mean that political rule was arbitrary, or b) that their rulers may have disregarded the religious "whims" of their gods if they did not correspond with "right reason" necessary for a functioning government.
Oh my, 🙂 I could almost write a book in response to your questions. The Parthenon would be idea of possible the most important building in history, because it does mark the time in history when there was a shift from rule by whim to rule by reason. I don't think we should discuss all the successful civilizations of history in this thread. 🙂 However, if you want to discuss the success of Aztecs, and the benefits of ritual cannibalism, just start the thread and PM me. People have reacted very badly to me saying such things in the past, so perhaps I should provide so context to what is a pragmatic statement. I am not the normal poster. I have studied humanity for many years, from every point of view possible, psychologically, sociologically, religion and myth, historically, etc. . The point is I am very board minded and pragmatic. If someone's reasoning is better then mine, I will accept that reasoning as the best reasoning. However, like Socrates I can really annoy people by questioning what we reason. I constantly question my own reasoning, and see paradox often. Water is good for us, as long it is not contaminated. Our reasoning can be perfect, except for this one little glitch that turns everything upside down, like the contamination in the water. So I hope people take anything I say too seriously, okay? That said, comparing the important difference a successful civilization based on false beliefs with the success of a civilization based on a developing scientific study of nature, is an important comparison to make. The question of this thread is when and where did western civilization. My answer is, it began in Athens, and the Parthenon marks the time and place of this transition. I will explain more of anyone cares.
Oh my, I could almost write a book in response to your questions. The Parthenon would be idea of possible the most important building in history, because it does mark the time in history when there was a shift from rule by whim to rule by reason.
Hi Athena! Welcome to WCF! Be careful now. Hammurabi, Akhneton, Moses, Solomon, Xerxes among others were trying to implement rule by reason and law long before the Greeks got around to it. Don't get me wrong, I love the Greek contribution to our civilization, but we sometimes forget that they were newcomers to the game and only perfected what others tried before. In fact, the Greeks were imitators of the Egyptians whom they revered just like the Romans would later imitate them. 😉
My answer is, it began in Athens, and the Parthenon marks the time and place of this transition. I will explain more of anyone cares.
I would like to hear your explanation only because I disagree with what you're saying so far. The Parthenon is not a symbol of democracy or reason, it was a temple built to honor Athena and heroes of the war (HUGE religious significance in that) after the victory over the Persians. The Parthenon and Acropolis were perhaps the most religiously symbolic buildings in ancient Greece. IF there was a ideological shift away from religion in Greece (which, IMO, there wasn't) it could be argued that it was at the time of the Peloponnesian War.and welcome to WCF!
Welcome, Athena!I too, am very curious to hear how you square that circle. I fail to see how the construction of a monumental religious edifice by the government of Athens signals a shift from religious influenced rule to the rule of "right reason". I would appreciate any insight you can provide. Be warned though, that I am extremely skeptical to claims that seem to be all-encompassing and tend to be very blunt in pointing out what I see as failures in logic.
I certainly can not condense an explanation to three sentences, and it seems the custom here to keep post very short. Donald Kagan's book “Pericles of Athens and the Birth of Democracy”, uses a full chapter to explain the Parthenon, and that would be just the beginning of the explanation of change. The change occurs over a long time before the Parthenon was built and following the building of the Parthenon. Perhaps it is easier for you to explain to me, how Athens became a naval force that could defeat Persia and the political ramifications of meeting this urgent military need.