I saw this quote today from the president's remarks during his recent dinner held in honor of the start of the Muslim holiday of Ramadan, yes it was highlighted on Drudge:”…Like so many faiths, Islam has always been part of our American family…“. My question is, how true is this statement? I have done some very brief research and aside from some very anecdotal evidence there is not a lot of evidence for any significant Muslim presence in America until the 1960's. Based on what I have discovered Obama's remarks can be said to be maybe, probably, kind of, factually true but practically false. Is this typical political dissimulation or a blatant pandering to Islam and mulitculturalism?
No. It's an outright lie and pandering to terrorists, which seems to be typical of our present president. Islam had nothing to do with America other than the fact that Europeans went west to try to find a new route because the old one was blocked by Islamists.On second thought, Muslims did sell a lot of slaves. ::)This isn't the first time he's mentioned this. He also said this in his speech in Cairo right after he was sworn in.
I am guessing that there might have been a handful of Muslims who were in the Colonies early on, and I'm sure someone, somewhere has examined documents to this effect. However, the real show would be when a mosque was built. So, who here knows when the first mosque was built in America?
It strikes me as "blatant pandering to Islam and multiculturalism."
I tend to agree.
In order for this to be pandering would it not be a pre-condition that muslims - I presume you meant muslims by Islam - wanted to be portrayed as "always being a part of the American family"?Personally I just think its an un-important exaggaration, no one with even a grade school level of history knowledge would seriously contend that Islam was a shaping influence for the US.
THe problem, in America at least, is that many folks don't have that grade school level of knowledge. Witness the popularity of the show Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader in the US and the number of people that go on there and are not. Read the comments on the YouTube video and you will see exactly what I am talking about. The average American is not just ignorant, they are almost willfully so. This makes them easy to persuade that something i true when even basic research will show you that it is not. This is not to say that the average European is better, they absolutely are not.
THe problem, in America at least, is that many folks don't have that grade school level of knowledge. Witness the popularity of the show Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader in the US and the number of people that go on there and are not. Read the comments on the YouTube video and you will see exactly what I am talking about. The average American is not just ignorant, they are almost willfully so. This makes them easy to persuade that something i true when even basic research will show you that it is not. This is not to say that the average European is better, they absolutely are not.
Agreed on all points but - as you pointed out in the end - this is not a uniquely American phenomenon. Laymen everywhere are easy to manipulate but they are very hard to convince of something anything if it goes against their (i) prejudices, (ii) what they see with their eyes or (iii) what people they would like to believe tell them. And Islam being a "part of the American family" goes against every one of those for the average American, no? I still think it was just an exaggaration to curb both the Islamophobia that is taking root in the West and the anti-west sentiment that is taking root in what used to be "moderate" Islamic countries.
I don't think it is pandering to Islam so much as pandering to the multicultural postmodern ideals of many on the left. And yes, Muslims would love to convince the majority in the US that there has always been a significant Muslim presence in the US. That would benefit their cause of trying to convince people that they are all just a bunch of folks that want to just get along. While I think many Muslims do want to just get along, I think even more don't. That maybe due to the anti-western propaganda prevalent in modern Muslim society or it might just be inherent in a culture influenced by an intolerant religion. I am not enough of an expert to say conclusively one way or the other. I do know that as a modern phenomenon Anti-western propaganda goes back farther in Muslim society than anti-Muslim feeling does in the west.Don't forget that the history of western crusading was forgotten by the Muslim world until the decline and destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the growth of western influence in the Middle East. Crusading history is used for propaganda and not education in the Muslim World. I distinctly remember trying to convince a local sheik in Iraq in 2004 that we were not crusaders commissioned by the Pope to subdue Islam and force them to convert; yet that is what he was being told by Arab TV and Muslim scholars in Iraq.
I don't think it is pandering to Islam so much as pandering to the multicultural postmodern ideals of many on the left. And yes, Muslims would love to convince the majority in the US that there has always been a significant Muslim presence in the US. That would benefit their cause of trying to convince people that they are all just a bunch of folks that want to just get along. While I think many Muslims do want to just get along, I think even more don't. That maybe due to the anti-western propaganda prevalent in modern Muslim society or it might just be inherent in a culture influenced by an intolerant religion. I am not enough of an expert to say conclusively one way or the other. I do know that as a modern phenomenon Anti-western propaganda goes back farther in Muslim society than anti-Muslim feeling does in the west.Don't forget that the history of western crusading was forgotten by the Muslim world until the decline and destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the growth of western influence in the Middle East. Crusading history is used for propaganda and not education in the Muslim World. I distinctly remember trying to convince a local sheik in Iraq in 2004 that we were not crusaders commissioned by the Pope to subdue Islam and force them to convert; yet that is what he was being told by Arab TV and Muslim scholars in Iraq.
I agree about your comment regarding anti-muslim feeling being pre-dated by anti-western propaganda in the muslim world. I also agree that the crusades were not an issue during the Ottoman reign, but I don't think they were forgotten. I just think "the Crusaders" were no longer an immedeate threat so it was not a big deal. I mean consider modern day Mongolia, do you consider them to be a threat now? Of course not, so Genghis Khan is just a historical figure from ages ago. But let's say in 40 years the Mongolians somehow become a superpower and bring their brand of [please insert any ideology here] to countries near and far. Than the march of the Mongols on europe wouldn't seem to be that far in the past. Of course its absurd for you or I to believe you were commissioned by the Pope for a crusade but as you earlier said stupidity and ignorance is plentiful in the world. And just to be on the safe side I'm not comparing what the US did in the ME to what Genghis Khan did all those years ago 🙂The fundamental premise I don't agree with is what you said about more muslims being hostile to the west. Admittedly the past ten years has not been one where mutual understanding was at its peak but at the end of the day muslims, christians, jews hell even jehovas witness just want to live and see their offspring prosper. I also admit the percantage of volatile individuals are much higher in the muslim countries then in the west. But this is to be expected if your standard bearer is Turkey in things like democratization, tolerance, economy etc. I believe irrespective of its name by its nature every organized religion as a rule is intolerant. Its only if the devout of that particular religon realise that its not their job to "convert every heathen" or "rid the world of the infidel" that any such religion can truly become a "religion of peace". Unfortunately I agree that Islam has not crossed that threshold in almost all places where it is practiced. But I'm still hopeful that it will. I will comment on the why later as I have a football match to go to now. 🙂
I get the belief that more Muslims are hostile to the west from the sheer amount of celebration evident after 9/11 and the reaction to several things since then. I distinctly remember the Danish Embassy in Syria being ransacked after the publishing of the Mohammed cartoons and widespread rioting and even people being killed as Muslims express their rage over a bunch of cartoons. Contrast that with the reaction in the West to the anti-Jewish/Western “art” exhibit put on by Iran as a way to test Western tolerance or even the reaction to the display of some of the tasteless art depicting Christian images in the west such as Serrano's Work or this one that uses Elephant Dung on a picture of the Virgin Mary. Perceived public reaction leads me to believe that Muslims are more anti-western and also less tolerant than westerners.You are absolutely right that by definition, every religion is intolerant. I repeat the [url url=http://Apostle's Creed]Nicene Creed[/url] every Sunday in church which specifically states that "I believe in one, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." The difference between most Christians, myself and most Muslims is that while I and most Christians may think non Christians are Heretics or at best heathens, we are content to let them go to hell in their own way. God gave us all free choice after all.I am convinced a renewed call to Crusade would receive a lukewarm response, if any at all from the community of the faithful. The message of the peaceful martyr is much more powerful in modern Christianity than that of the militant monk and fighter for the faith. The Islamic world has not reached that point yet.
I get the belief that more Muslims are hostile to the west from the sheer amount of celebration evident after 9/11 and the reaction to several things since then. I distinctly remember the Danish Embassy in Syria being ransacked after the publishing of the Mohammed cartoons and widespread rioting and even people being killed as Muslims express their rage over a bunch of cartoons. Contrast that with the reaction in the West to the anti-Jewish/Western "art" exhibit put on by Iran as a way to test Western tolerance or even the reaction to the display of some of the tasteless art depicting Christian images in the west such as Serrano's Work or this one that uses Elephant Dung on a picture of the Virgin Mary. Perceived public reaction leads me to believe that Muslims are more anti-western and also less tolerant than westerners.You are absolutely right that by definition, every religion is intolerant. I repeat the [url url=http://Apostle's Creed]Nicene Creed[/url] every Sunday in church which specifically states that "I believe in one, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." The difference between most Christians, myself and most Muslims is that while I and most Christians may think non Christians are Heretics or at best heathens, we are content to let them go to hell in their own way. God gave us all free choice after all.I am convinced a renewed call to Crusade would receive a lukewarm response, if any at all from the community of the faithful. The message of the peaceful martyr is much more powerful in modern Christianity than that of the militant monk and fighter for the faith. The Islamic world has not reached that point yet.
I think we agree on more things than not. I do concede the anti-western feeling is the pre-dominant one in muslim lands - not to the extent you believe it to exist but too much nonetheless - but I do not believe that is because of the religion of Islam itself, which is no more or less tolerant then other religions. The reason why there are more crazies that are muslims than not I think has more to do with these;1 - Islam has not gone through the reformation struggles that you have went through. 2 - The only mostly muslim country in the world that has never been colonized is Turkey, which is also the most western oriented, secular and modern country with a muslim population. I do not think this is a coincidence as in most former colonies religion was a catalyst to overthrow the colonial power. That sort of resentment doesn't just go away overnight, especially if those same colonial powers are percieved to be also responsible for most of today's problems. As to why I think this will change is simple; communication. It used to be easier to scare people into believing the west was out to get them. That if the mighty [Saddam, Esad, Humeyni etc.] did not protect them the west would come make them all jews or christians rape their women and kill the rest. As you have pointed out from personal experience that even in recent past there are people who believed this sort of thing. The only way that the people will see that this is not true is through communication amongst the real people. I hope this will be the true accomplishment of the so colled "information age".
Yeah, the reformation and counter-reformation were hugely formative in fostering tolerance, if not acceptance, of differences of belief. Something similar will happen with Islam as well, that, or Islams intolerance will be the seeds of it's own destruction. The realization of exactly how intolerant many Muslims are coupled with terrorism has caused a backlash that many in the west or Muslim world did not anticipate. I am not just talking military action either, but also the cultural reaction visible with the rise of cultural isolationists in the west. Geert Wilders, that preacher in Florida, and many others are just the most visible manifestations of the reactions of many westerners who now perceive western culture to be under attack. Let us hope that reform of Islam comes from within, and that right soon. I have met many Muslims who are decent people, I have also met many who are decent and would kill me in an instant if they thought they could get away with it. Getting rid of, minimizing it's influence, or changing the mind of the second group is what any Islamic reformation has to do.I don't think it was that Turkey did not get colonized, rather I think it is that the young Turks reformed from within that makes Turkey exceptional. It helps also that they came to the fore while the Ottomans were till considered a power, even if no longer a great power. Every citizen of modern day Turkey should go to bed every night thanking god that he brought the Young Turks and Kemal Ataturk along when he did. If not, then surely Turkey would have been carved up at Versailles like the rest of the Muslim lands were under the League of Nations Mandate system.Communication may be the key, but the audience must be receptive for that communication to have a chance of changing minds. I think that the success of Democracy in Turkey and Iraq are game changers. Now there are two Muslim countries that show representative democracy can be compatible with Islam. Muslim democracy will not look the same as western democracy but it does not need to. The important point is that the people have a voice. Important too is that some segment of society be committed to upholding democracy, that element is or at least was the military in Turkey and the US in Iraq. The net twenty years or so will be interesting in the middle east. I don't think the "Arab Spring" is showing the way just yet, we still don't know what will come of rebellion and revolution in many Arab countries, only time will tell. I think the tendency for absolutism is still a little strong in Arab society and the results of the "Arab Spring" will just be the replacement of one tyranny with another.I too am hopeful, it was the last thing in Pandora's Box after all.