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Pope Francis assures sceptics: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heavenI really don't know what to think of the new Pope. He is at it again claiming faith is not required for entry into the Kingdom of God. Following on last month's statements about homosexuality I don't know what he is trying to do. I hope that he will convince those wavering in their faith that the Church is there for them and can help lead them to salvation. I fear he is really saying the Church is irrelevant and people can do what they want as long as they are contrite when they are judged before the Maker.Thoughts anyone?
I don't think this is revolutionary. He stated that conscience is king, and this has been taught for centuries. It is almost another way of saying that the the same standard applies to all regardless of religion. I think he is really trying to build bridges to the non-believing world.
Yes, he did say that. He also said that faith is not required in this life to reach the Kingdom of God in the next. I don't recall anything in scripture that says that, but I could be wrong. I do remember reading something about man can only achieve salvation through Christ. That would seem to require faith in this life not “oops, I was wrong and now feel bad” when you are standing before the Man himself.
I didn't see that in the article, although the headline kind of insinuated that. One thing I have learned is that the media reports of the pope's remarks are often filtered through a lens of distortion, so I would have to see the original statement.
I don't know what he is at this point. I just know he says a lot of things that kind of stick in my craw. Maybe I should go to one of the fundamentalist Catholic sects that reject Vatican II.
I don't know what he is at this point. I just know he says a lot of things that kind of stick in my craw. Maybe I should go to one of the fundamentalist Catholic sects that reject Vatican II.
First of all, I would suggest that you take a look at his exact words. I still would like to read the exact words that he said. Wording, especially in theology matters, can be very important. Simply look at the divergence between faith/works justification over the centuries over a matter or words, and the political fallout that resulted. I think context of one's statements is also very important. Second, I would suggest considering whether what he said was radical at all, or if it was simply another way of stating what the Catholic Church has already stated. For example, can salvation be possible for those who do not know Christ? What does the Church teach about those who, like the lost tribe in the Brazilian rainforest, do not know Christ because of no fault of their own but who otherwise lead relatively blameless lives? Third, I think that joining a sect is to ignore the plausible reality of the situation. Would a pope who has spend years/decades in authority under other orthodox popes really be a closet heretic who is changing doctrine? That seems preposterous. Papal history is filled with stories of popes who bring their own talents, areas of focus, skills, and even weaknesses into their papacies. Just because Pope Benedict XVI was a strong theologian does not mean that Pope Francis is wrong for focusing on different matters, such as the poor and apostolate to non-believers and homosexuals. In the end, I think that if Catholicism is meant to bring all to salvation then there is really no way that people like atheists or homosexuals can be ignored. While I recognize that the article at the beginning of this thread begs even more questions, I think that we should trust that what was said was not heretical.
This link is to the full Text of the letterI have read it. Read it and tell me what you think. Maybe I am being too cynical, I don't think so.
From what I saw, this seems to be the only applicable passage:
First of all, you ask if the God of the Christians forgives those who do not believe and do not seek faith. Given that - and this is fundamental - God's mercy has no limits if he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart, the issue for those who do not believe in God is in obeying their own conscience. In fact, listening and obeying it, means deciding about what is perceived to be good or to be evil. The goodness or the wickedness of our behavior depends on this decision.
I could be wrong in my analysis, but it seems to me that "he who asks for mercy does so in contrition and with a sincere heart" implicitly has faith in God in his heart, does it not? If one were truly an atheist, why would he ask for mercy in the first place? Now, I do think that such a statement is probably better expounded upon through other qualifiers, but I am guessing that the Pope stated this as a generalization.
More Pope news on Drudge now. He wants the church to quit obsessing over gays and abortion now. He wants balance. Is he trying to compromise too much?
I just read it after you mentioned it. I think he is trying to promote the Catholic Church in a light that is different from the past, but not in a way that departs from its doctrines. Based on my understanding, back in the day (and even leading up to today), Catholicism could be perceived as if it's mostly a set of heavy prohibitions or rules that believers must navigate through life if they want to be found worthy. This misses the point, however, of what it means to life the Christian life in its fullness. It seems that Pope Francis wants to continue to move beyond the older way of thinking by emphasizing other aspects of the Catholic faith. I do not think the Pope would ever claim that he is trying to invalidate doctrine. However, watch out if the mainstream media runs with this in a way that makes it seem as if this is so.
I get the impression the pope is deliberately trying to liberalize the church to make it more appealing to less conservative people. In my mind he is the equivalent of those in the “Constitution as living document” crowd that think they can weasel their way around issues by appealing to changing times and mores. I don't doubt that he is a sincere man of faith. I do doubt however whether he is the right man to be Pope. Unfortunately, the pope is elected by men and men are fallible. I increasingly fear that selecting Francis was a huge mistake as it will tend to tear the church apart if he continues down his apparent path of liberalization. It is said you know your true friends not by who is with you in good times but who is with in bad. The church is similar in my view, you can know the true faithful by seeing who has stuck by the church and faith in the good times. Does it help anything if he liberalizes the church to attract all the "part-time" Catholics and others who were turned off by the doctrine of the previous 2,000 years? Liberalization is not growing and outreach, it is watering down doctrine.These further statements by the Pope just deepen my worries about where the church is headed. What is next, a decision that the Sacraments are open to non-Catholics and an individual state of grace does not matter, only repentance matters? I can see that one coming. The Pope sounds an awful lot like a Pelosi/Biden Catholic right now, say one thing and do another.The English translation of the complete interview can be found here: A Big Heart Open to GodStories like the following are part of why I think the way I do: Liberals take heart from Pope Francis’ ‘home for all’ remarksThe Pope ain't stupid and you can't tell me he does not know what reaction his remarks will bring. Of course he knows just as benedict did when he quoted the Byzantine Emperor in regards to Islam in Regensberg several years ago.
Thank you for the link to the whole interview. Yet again, it seems that when we hear filtered stories on the Pope's remarks through the media, the meaning is distorted. It is a lengthy article (around 10,000 words when I did a count), so I searched for where “abortion” came up. It showed up three times, all in this context:
“This is also the great benefit of confession as a sacrament: evaluating case by case and discerning what is the best thing to do for a person who seeks God and grace. The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord’s mercy motivates us to do better. I also consider the situation of a woman with a failed marriage in her past and who also had an abortion. Then this woman remarries, and she is now happy and has five children. That abortion in her past weighs heavily on her conscience and she sincerely regrets it. She would like to move forward in her Christian life. What is the confessor to do?“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus.
Wow - does this sound at all like someone who wants to start saying "who cares?" about abortion, sexual vice, etc.? No, it does not seem that way to me at all. From what he stated, and the context of his statement, it simply seems as if he wants to provide the broader message of the Gospels, which includes instructions on sexual morality but which is so much more as a whole. Some people - especially on the outside - may want to reduce Catholicism to a set of sexual rules, but this misses the overall message. If Catholics (especially those on the fringes of the Catholic community) constantly hear a message of "don't do this, don't do that", the Catholic Church runs the risk of keeping those people away even though the true message should be one which draws them in. Look, I don't think it's a surprise that liberal Catholic groups will try to distort this into making others think it's ok to sodomize or whatever now. And of course those groups will be given a voice in the media. My advice: take what they say with a grain of salt. The last paragraph on the first page of that "Liberals take heart" article was a good response to them:
The Catholic Association, however, said the pope was simply telling his flock to remember to first express Christian love in their lives.“The pope is not in any way proposing that the church should abandon important moral and social teachings. Rather, the pope is reaffirming a longstanding teaching that reaches all the way back to the founding of Christianity: love your neighbor,” senior fellow Ashley McGuire said.
