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We will still be here the next time the world needs help. ;D[/b]
Oh yes. Feel free to sell us to Russia anytime you want 🙂I understand Manchuria is far more important than some guys from eastern Europe 😉
I guess it is part of the lingering Western European prejudices towards Slavs and Hungarians as “orientals.” The Balkans used to be known as the Near East. Even the Russian foreign minister back in 1876 called inhabitants of the Balkans “Christianized Turks with funny names.”Chamberlain referred to Czechoslovakia as "third drawer" in 1938, and in 1968 Presidential candidate Eugene McCarthy essentially said it was not worth defending. Same regarding the Hungarians in 1956 by the Eisenhower Administration. U.S. and its allies decided Containment not All-out Liberation was the best way to deal with the USSR and avoid WWIII.Small nations are often sacrificed for the perceived "greater good" of the major powers, usually short-term thinking.
Anyone can feel free to use America as their whipping boy though, Lord knows everybody else is doing it too. We will still be here the next time the world needs help. ;D
Sorry I didn't mean to be anti-American. Rereading what I wrote I see how it could be interpreted that way - so please accept my apologies. All I am saying is the US behaved pretty much in a way consistent with its own interests, as every other state has done throughout history. I am too long in the tooth to expect anything else. Yes the US did save the world from Nazism. And yes Britain's decline was inevitable given the rise of the US. But the US did very well out of the exercise of its power around the globe, and we are still living in the world created by that. When the emotions have died down, which will probably take another century or two, I think that it will not be seen as quite the pure good versus evil struggle that we have all been brought up to believe.
TMHO As sordid as politics can be, this post was first dedicated to the people who gave their lives to free Europe. Nobody forced them. They did it. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Britons, Polish, … and not only them: people from colonies and many other volunteers. Â At least, we must never forget them. Â Â (WWII politics in another post pls)
TMHO As sordid as politics can be, this post was first dedicated to the people who gave their lives to free Europe. Nobody forced them. They did it. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Britons, Polish, ... and not only them: people from colonies and many other volunteers. Â At least, we must never forget them. Â Â (WWII politics in another post pls)
.... When the emotions have died down, which will probably take another century or two, I think that it will not be seen as quite the pure good versus evil struggle that we have all been brought up to believe.
This seems likely to me too.
TMHO As sordid as politics can be, this post was first dedicated to the people who gave their lives to free Europe. Nobody forced them. They did it. Americans, Australians, Canadians, Britons, Polish, ... and not only them: people from colonies and many other volunteers.
I see you like this sentence a lot in America 🙂I don't want to be nosy but are you sure there weren't any draftees in US divisions which landed in Normandy?and British, Canadians, Poles and Australians were forced to fight in that war much earlier, by two guys with moustaches 😉
When the emotions have died down, which will probably take another century or two, I think that it will not be seen as quite the pure good versus evil struggle that we have all been brought up to believe.
I agree 😉
Anyone can feel free to use America as their whipping boy though, Lord knows everybody else is doing it too. We will still be here the next time the world needs help. ;D
Sorry I didn't mean to be anti-American. Rereading what I wrote I see how it could be interpreted that way - so please accept my apologies. All I am saying is the US behaved pretty much in a way consistent with its own interests, as every other state has done throughout history. I am too long in the tooth to expect anything else. Yes the US did save the world from Nazism. And yes Britain's decline was inevitable given the rise of the US. But the US did very well out of the exercise of its power around the globe, and we are still living in the world created by that. When the emotions have died down, which will probably take another century or two, I think that it will not be seen as quite the pure good versus evil struggle that we have all been brought up to believe.
Historyscientist,No offense taken. I probably let too much of my personal frustration with the way America is treated by Academia both in the States and abroad out. You are right in that the longer the distance in time we get from events, the more dispassionately they will be analyzed. It is also easy to let tempers flare online. I tender my apology to you as well.Yes, there was a large measure of self-interest in American efforts in WWII, I would however, argue that on the part of the American public, support for the war was based mostly on idealism; that idealism was real whether it was stoked by propaganda or not. I take umbrage to people that claim America?s contribution was secondary to defeating Nazism and Japanese Militarism. The facts plainly show that America?s contribution was decisive and without that contribution, Europe and the Pacific would have been conquered. America had the power to remain in splendid isolation; we did not. We even could have ignored Germany and focused on Japan. It was Japan that attacked us after all.Lastly, I always wonder about the motives of people who like to run down any nation?s contribution to the effort of defeating the Axis powers. Is not the final result enough, or do we have to argue about who did their fair share and what that actually amounts to?
If that's addressed to me, I'm not arguing about American contribution to WWII.I'm just amused by black&white version of history everytime when I see it.You mentioned about Japan. It reminded me about an episode in our history which is one of many proofs that history of WWII is not black&white, good&evil etc.That episode is described in this book, which is unfortunately available only in Polish language version.http://www.overtee.pl/ksiazka/miedzy-warszawa-a-tokio-polsko-japonska-wspolpraca-wywiadowcza-1904-1944.htmlThe book is about partnership of intelligence between Poland and Japan in years 1904 - 1944.For those, who don't know, Russia was extremely dangerous neighbour both to Poland and Japan. Japan had a seat of antisoviet inteligence in Warsaw until 1928, when it was moved to Berlin. Polish and Japanese secret service were cooperating in matters concerning Russia.In 1939 Germany and Russia conquered Poland. In april 1940, Stalin had 22 768 of captured Polish officers and clerks killed. In 1941, Germany invaded Russia and so Soviets became friends with the Allies. When Japan invaded USA, Japan became enemy of the Allies. In 1943 when the truth about massacre of Polish officers has been revealed by Germans, it was immediately hidden from public opinion - we were all Allies 🙂Who do you think we consider bigger enemy and barbarian bastard, Japan or Russia 😉 ?I apologize for off-topic disscusion:)It's all because of rainy weather 🙂
I don?t think anyone is saying that the issue is black & white. I could argue though that there was a pretty stark difference between good & evil except where the Russians were concerned. The Russians being part of the Allies was a simple example of the old saying about “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” There was plenty of argument in the halls of power within the Western democracies about the wisdom of giving any aid to Russia. In the end, pragmatism won out but throughout the war there was no love lost between the west and Russia. For an easy example see the wartime discussion about western bombers landing and refueling in Russian controlled territory. The Russians interned Western bomber crews that landed in their territory during the war; not exactly the action of an ally is it?
A few months after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, my 5th grade class in San Francisco received new Social Studies books. The previous one included Stalin with Hitler and Mussolini as evil dictators. The new book praised the USSR as a democracy for its constitution of 1936. I remember clearly because my politically astute father lost his temper when he read .The U.S. CP did an earlier about face after the USSR was attacked by its non-aggression pact ally, Nazi Germany. On orders from Moscow of course. They had been told to tone down anti-Nazi rhetoric and such after Molotov signed the non-aggression pace with Germany.
Interesting story Donroc. George Orwell tells a story about a Communist who was in the lavatory when a party line changed, and returned to a conference to find himself a heretic.
Interesting story Donroc. George Orwell tells a story about a Communist who was in the lavatory when a party line changed, and returned to a conference to find himself a heretic.
e.e.cummings wrote a poem about communists jumping to Moscow's tune/pipes. Some American intellectuals left the U.S. CP at the time they were ordered by the USSR to tone down or stop the anti-Nazi agitation.To digress, cummings wrote my favorite political poem. If I may from memory:red rag and pink flagblack shirt and brownstrutmince and stinkbraghave all come to town.Some like them shotsome like them hungsome like them in the t**tnine months young.
