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I must add this FYI about using the term “Dark Ages” to describe this board. From Wikipedia:
This concept of a "Dark Age" was created by Italian humanists and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Later historians expanded the term to include not only the lack of Latin literature, but a lack of contemporary written history and material cultural achievements in general. Popular culture has further expanded on the term as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope.
In the sense of the term used in that quote, I must disagree with its use. After all, these ages described as "dark" brought us the following figures, among others (taken from here):
- Justinian
- St. Benedict
- Charles Martel
- Pippin the Short
- Boethius
- Charles the Fat
- Louis IV
- Venerable Bede
- Charlemagne
Of course, we could also discuss the birth of feudalism, the rise of the super-tall structures, or the preservation of Roman ideals when we talk about this period of history. This age was not one, after all, that was "dark" in the sense of "ignorant". In fact, the conclusion of the Wikipedia article has this to say:
Historians today consider the negative connotations of the word "dark" in "Dark Ages" negates its usefulness as a description of history. Yet Petrarch's concept of it, like that of other early humanists after him, as a discrete period distinct from our "Modern" age, has endured, and the term still finds use, through various definitions, both in popular culture and academic discourse.
So the definition in which I use the term "Dark Ages" must be taken in context - as that which most accurately describes the popular concept of the period in European time after the Fall of Rome and before the arrival of the Medieval period or the High Middle Ages.Please enjoy this board and help us bring it alive with dicussion.
Great new catagory! One question about your defintion of dark ages, Do you think that time period is really the foundation of our modern society? It was just a thought that popped into my head when I was reading your post. I was thinking that religion, literature and even government began to take a shape that we today could recognize to a certain extent. If so I guess that would add some light to the 'dark ages'.
I counsel you to read Rodney Stark, the celebrated contemporary historian. His research and logical study shows the term “Dark ages” (refering to the period of disenlightenment after the great high cultures of Ancient Greece and Rome came crashing down blamed on the rise of Christianity) was knowingly created and spun from whole cloth. One example he used was Andrew Dickson White, the President of Cornell, who concocted a story of Columbus being blocked from enlightened voyages of discovery by Religious zealots who would torture or excommunicate anyone who didn't agree that the Earth was flat. Of course that was a direct lie - as science was driven by Christian universities all throughout the so-called "Dark Ages," and the Church agreed that the Earth was round. The issue was that the Church knew the correct circumferance of the Earth and if Columbus had not encountered an unknown continent, he and his crews would have died by thirst and starvation only a third of the way to the Orient. Columbus argued that it was a little over 2,000 miles to the Eastern coast of Asia. He was wrong and an idiot, but a very, very lucky idiot.In Dr. Bill Bennett's new history book, he also confirms the Stark facts on Columbus and the Church and portrays the voyage of Columbus the way it really was. What is interesting is how all the history text books in use across the U.S. for half a century got it wrong and filled the minds of trusting young Leftists that the Church was anti-Science and full of Flat-Earth zealots.
I counsel you to read Rodney Stark, the celebrated contemporary historian. His research and logical study shows the term "Dark ages" (refering to the period of disenlightenment after the great high cultures of Ancient Greece and Rome came crashing down blamed on the rise of Christianity) was knowingly created and spun from whole cloth. In Dr. Bill Bennett's new history book, he also confirms the Stark facts on Columbus and the Church and portrays the voyage of Columbus the way it really was. What is interesting is how all the history text books in use across the U.S. for half a century got it wrong and filled the minds of trusting young Leftists that the Church was anti-Science and full of Flat-Earth zealots.
Sounds like an interesting read. I agree with your assesment of text books, at least the ones I had in school. They were practically worthless.
Sounds like an interesting read. I agree with your assesment of text books, at least the ones I had in school. They were practically worthless.
If so, you? might wish to read the analysis of textbooks by Dr. Burton W. Folsom, who points out that when historical texts are distorted and biased, students may act on false ideas and live out a lie.(Note that the link to Folsom is available by clicking on his name in the above paragraph, even though there is no color or underscore to indicate so.)
My professor Dr. Randolph Daniels, made an excellent case that the Dark Ages were never Dark. Phid already mentioned the rise of the Gothic Cathedrals during the age highlighted by the Flying Buttress, but also those great figures he listed. The only thing that can keep the term relevant is the fact that Europe was restructuring in the aftermath of Rome's fall. Though technology progressed, the height of culture as seen in Rome, was no where near matched. So in comparison to the shining glory that was Rome, early Medieval Europe was indeed a dim flicker.
My professor Dr. Randolph Daniels, made an excellent case that the Dark Ages were never Dark. Phid already mentioned the rise of the Gothic Cathedrals during the age highlighted by the Flying Buttress, but also those great figures he listed. The only thing that can keep the term relevant is the fact that Europe was restructuring in the aftermath of Rome's fall. Though technology progressed, the height of culture as seen in Rome, was no where near matched. So in comparison to the shining glory that was Rome, early Medieval Europe was indeed a dim flicker.
Ok, this begs a question of my own, but I will post it in the Rome board since it's more applicable there.But also, I should add that the flying buttress as an architectural feature really only came into place around 1193 with the Chartres Cathedral, which really ushered in the Gothic Age. This was a new era of architecture that spawned some of the greatest works ever known to man. However, the Gothic cathedrals really only came about because of Romanesque architecture, which was the style that developed during what we are calling the Dark Age. Romanesque cathedrals became very vertical in their western facade towers, but were heavier and less ornate than the later Gothic ones. In fact, it was during the Dark Ages that some of what we still see today in our churches developed.
I'm going to add some possible controversy. ;DThe Muslims, especially under the Abbasid Dynasty, are perhaps what made the Dark Ages not so dark too. It was they who had the most libraries and the largest (outside of Constantinople) cities...Baghdad, Cordoba, Cairo. They made advances in mathematics, geography (which became very valuable to Western sailors and merchants) and the natural sciences, preserved (and translated to Arabic and Latin) ancient texts, they made books using paper (that they got through trade with China), and made discoveries in astronomy and medicine (Ibn Sina, known as Avicenna to the West, discovered contagious diseases and how they can be spread by contminated water...pretty important thing to know back then IMO).They developed the astrolabe, which later made it possible for Europeans to sail to the Americas.If I'm incorrect about this, then educate me. But from what I see, they contributed and assimilated to society at that time.
The Abbassids were also the first to use propaganda in their rise to power. The main deal about the Dark Ages is that it was only "Dark" in Western Europe where restructuring was underway in the aftermath of the collapse of Rome and the ascension of the Germanic kingdoms that culminated into the Franks and the Holy Roman Empire (which was neither Holy nor Roman I might add). Islam was in its Golden Age beginning in the Dark Ages and remained so until 1492 or thereabouts.
The Abbassids were also the first to use propaganda in their rise to power.
The first? I don't know about that. There where many who used propaganda before them.
The Abbassids were also the first to use propaganda in their rise to power.
The first? I don't know about that. There where many who used propaganda before them.
I mean written propaganda like how the Nazis did...a formalized campaign of ideas against the old Umayyad Dynasty. Well that's what my professor taught me anyway. 🙂
