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September 15, 2009 at 8:49 pm #12988
skiguy
ModeratorColumbus may have thought or said that, but wasn't he under the authority of the Spanish crown? He did what THEY wanted. To badly paraphrase my text, the motive of wealth went along with the motive of spreading faith because the Spanish thought they were divinely inspired to spread Christianity and to conquer. In order to rule and spread the faith, the crown understood that they had to be in charge, and they needed the money to do this. (that's how they justified their greed, IMHO).
September 15, 2009 at 9:11 pm #12989Phidippides
KeymasterI'm sure that religious motivations played a part in continued exploration by the Spanish, and possibly part of the original Columbus voyage as well. However, when I speak of “religious motivation”, I'm referring to the desire to convert others for the salvation of their souls. To me, converting them in order to create an ally for global security would fall more along the lines of political motivation, even though it's done under the guise of religion.I agree with Scout on the interaction of politics and religion in 15th century. My understanding of this, particularly in Spain, was that one's political allegiance was known by one's religion. In other words, if you did not belong to the Catholic faith then you were a suspect, a potential spy. In an age of war and fear of the unknown moves by your enemy, faith was a litmus test for allegiance to the state.Although in our modern age we may think that we live in a pluralistic society and are above such things, echoes of this kind of thing are seen even today. Just a few years ago there was some uproar about airport screeners who would do random pat downs or inspections of people's belongings, including a careful screening of granny, instead of focusing on people with Muslim or Middle Eastern characteristics. The point was that in matters of national security people try to find some way of addressing problems of allegiance pragmatically, which means that some of the rights of the innocent will be disregarded in favor of avoiding serious catastrophe.
September 15, 2009 at 10:26 pm #12990skiguy
ModeratorWell, whether a political or religious reason or both, do you agree with this as motivation? The Spanish believed that an uncivilized people deserved to be conquered and converted. They felt obligated to spread the faith and the only way to do it with uncivilized people was through conquest. Those who resisted were made slaves, and I assume those who converted may not have been slaves, but were considered a lower class.
September 16, 2009 at 9:03 am #12991scout1067
ParticipantIsnt it an article of the Christian faith that an unenlightened people need to be shown and converted to the True faith? To take your religious motive, isnt that evangelical mission reason enough to seek new souls?
October 12, 2009 at 5:35 am #12992KellyHawkes
ParticipantColumbus was inspired by God. See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/13/12-13#12
June 25, 2010 at 4:06 pm #12993donroc
ParticipantWhat about religious motivation? Columbus was a devout, some say militant, Catholic. He wanted to find new people to convert to Christianity so that they can recruit more people to defeat the Muslims. In this time period, the Ottoman Empire was extremely powerful. They just (1453) closed a major trade route to the east when taking Constantinople. Also, didn't the Spaniards expel the Mulsims from Iberia at this time as well? This HAD to be a motivating factor for westward exploration/expansion/colonialism/imperialism. So while the eastern Mediterranean was now closed to European trade, the western Mediterranean opened, which also created access for Italian merchants and mariners.
Ostentatious piety during this time could be a cover for tainted blood or crypto-Judaism.Why did Columbus sail without any cleric on board? No one to conduct religious services.He sailed the same day of the deadline for Jews to leave Spain, convert, or die.He had several men in his crew of new-Christian/converso origins.I recommend Wiesenthal's Sails of Hope, which delves deply into Columbus' associates, sponsors, and motivations.
June 25, 2010 at 4:50 pm #12994Aetheling
Participant“Spice, Gold, God”
June 25, 2010 at 6:27 pm #12995donroc
Participant"Spice, Gold, God"
Two out of three ain't bad. :-
June 25, 2010 at 9:30 pm #12996Aetheling
Participant"Spice, Gold, God"
Two out of three ain't bad. :-
Spice and gold ... of course
June 26, 2010 at 12:07 pm #12997donroc
Participant"Spice, Gold, God"
Two out of three ain't bad. :-
Spice and gold ... of course
Wiesenthal suggested a 4th possibility. A search for new lands where those of Jewish "blood" could flee to safety. As it turned out, many Judaizers and conversos did come to the Americas, and of course the Inquisition followed.In the meantime, I continue to be amused by the Italian and Spanish rivalry over the claim that CC was one of their own. I grew up in San Francisco when the City was about 30% Italian, many immigrant or 1st generation, and Columbus Day was a big deal with parades and such -and Angelo Rossi was Mayor.
July 2, 2014 at 12:09 am #12998Erudite
ParticipantI hope no one minds my pulling out an old discussion, but I was intrigued by the comments and ideas you've presented here. I wonder though why no one actually quoted from Columbus himself.
“God made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth, of which He spoke in the Apocalypse of St. John after having spoken of it by the mouth of Isaiah, and he showed me where to find it.”
His writings are filled with these kinds of ideas. He made himself a scholar of the scriptures (the Gutenberg Bible was published about the time Columbus was born) and had studied the scriptures extensively. His studies led him to the idea that the gospel of Christ needed to be preached to all the world. His belief would have been that baptism in the gospel of Christ was the only way to heaven and as such should be offered to all. And the way to offer it to all in the 15th century was by ship. He also says in a letter to the King and Queen of Spain:
“With a hand that could be felt, the Lord opened my mind to the fact that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies, and he opened my will to desire to accomplish the project. This was the fire that burned within me when I came to visit Your Highnesses. … Who can doubt that this fire was not merely mine, but also the Holy Spirit who encouraged me with a radiance of marvelous illumination from his sacred Scriptures.”
Yeah, he could see that there would need to be some "civilized" would required a governor and who better? And if the natives were some kind of wealthy that would certainly benefit Spain. But his main motivation, in his words, appears to be that he believed that God wanted him to go.
July 2, 2014 at 5:42 am #12999Phidippides
KeymasterWell thank you, Erudite, for pointing this out. I think sources such as that should be taken at face value, even if historians may not. With that said, the line that “God made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth, of which He spoke in the Apocalypse of St. John” needs some further examination. Did Columbus truly think of himself as playing such a role? I mean, this is no ordinary role that he supposes for himself, and it seems surprising for a Christian to think of himself in that way.
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