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I think that's a great source!
Me too. This is just a practical application, something you don't have in books. Useful and more clearer list for someone who did not spend hours and hours on this subject...Your sarcasm tells me you overlooked bibliography part of that site...erroneously.Non-Greek BibliographyBaltrusch, E., "Politik, Kommerz, Doping: Zum Sport in der Antike", Gymnasium 104 (1997), 509-521. Bell, D.J., A study of the Keles event in Ancient Greece from the pre-classical period to the 1st century B.C., Edinburgh 1989. Bentz, M., "Sport in der klassischen Polis", in Die griechische Klassik. Idee oder Wirklichkeit. Eine Ausstellung im Martin-Gropius-Bau, Berlin, 1. Maerz - 2. Juni 2002 und in der Kunst- und Ausstellungshalle der Bundesrepublik, Bonn, 5. Juli - 6. Oktober 2002, Berlin/Mainz am Rhein 2002, 247-259. Bury, E., Sport in der Antike, Stuttgart 1983. Cagniart, P., "Seneca's attitude towards sport and athletics", The Ancient History bulletin 14, Chicago 2000, 162-170. Coulson, W., Kyrieleis, H. (eds.), Proceedings of an International Symposium on the Olympic Games, 5-9/09/1988, Athens 1992. Crotty, K.M., Song and action. The victory odes of Pindar, Baltimore 1982. Decker, W., "Sport und Fest im Alten Aegypten", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter. Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 111-145. Decker, W., "Review of Spectacles sportifs et sceniques dans le monde etrusco-italique", Gnomon 71 (1999), Fasc. 6, 498-502. Decker, W., Sport in der griechischen Antike. Vom minoischen Wettkampf bis zu den Olympischen Spielen, Muenchen 1995. Dillon, M., "Did parthenoi attend the Olympic games? Girls and women competing, spectating, and carrying out cult roles at Greek religious festivals", Hermes 128 (2000), 457-480. Doblhofer, G., Mauritsch, P., Boxen. Texte, Uebersetzungen, Kommentar, Wien/Koeln/Weimar 1995. Drees, L., Der Ursprung der Olympischen Spiele, Stuttgart 1962. Eller, K.H., Certamina. Poetische Sportreportagen aus d. antiken Epos, Frankfurt am Main/Muenchen 1981. Farrington, A., "Olympic victors and the popularity of the Olympic games in the Imperial period", Tyche 12 (1997), 15-46. Fears, J.R., "The Theology of Victory at Rome: Approaches and Problems", in Temporini, H., Haase, W. (eds.), ANRW, Teil II: Principat. Siebzehnter Band (2. Teilband), Religion [Heidentum: Roemische Goetterkulte, Orientalische Kulte in der roemischen Welt (Forts.)], Berlin/New York 1981. Fortuin, R.W., Der Sport im augusteischen Rom. Philologische und sporthistorische Untersuchungen, Stuttgart 1996. Golden, M., Sport and Society in Ancient Greece, Cambridge 1998. Grodde, O., Sport bei Quintilian, Hildesheim 1997. Harris, H.A., Greek Athletes and Athletics, London 1971. Herrmann, K., "Olympia. The Sanctuary and the Contests", in Mind and Body. Athletic Contests in Ancient Greece, Ministry of Culture, The National Hellenic Committee I.C.O.M., Athens 1989, 47-68. Hornblower, S., "Thucydides, Xenophon, and Lichas: were the Spartans excluded from the Olympic games from 420 to 400 BC?", Phoenix 54 (2000), 212-225. Hubbard, T.K., "On Implied Wishes for Olympic Victory in Pindar", Illinois Classical Studies 20 (1995), 35-56. Junkelmann, M., "Griechische Athleten in Rom. Boxen, Ringen und Pankration", in Koehne, E., Ewigleben, C. (eds.), Caesaren und Gladiatoren. Die Macht der Unterhaltung im antiken Rom, Mainz/Hamburg 2000, 81-90. Larmour, D.H.J., Stage and stadium. Drama and athletics in ancient Greece, Chicago 1999. Lefkowitz, M.R., The victory ode, Park Ridge, NJ 1976. Mallwitz, A., Olympia und seine Bauten, Muenchen 1972. Mann, C., Krieg, Sport und Adelskultur. Zur Entstehung des griechischen Gymnasions, Klio 80 (1998), Fasc. 1, 7-21. Mannsperger, D., Olympischer Wettkampf. Sportdarstellungen auf antiken Muenzen und Medaillen, Tuebingen 1984. Maroti, E., Bibliographie zum antiken Sport und Agonistik, Szeged 1980. Matz, D.S., Greek and Roman Sport: a Dictionary of Athletes and Events from the Eighth Century B.C. to the Third Century A.D., London 1991. Meischner, J., Bildtradition antiker Wettkampfrequisiten, Jahrbuch des deutschen archaeologischen Instituts 110 (1995), 447-466. Miller, S., Ancient Greek Athletics, New Haven /London 2004.Miller, S., Organisation et fonctionnement des jeux Olympiques in Olympie, Cycle de huit conferences organise au musee du Louvre par le Service culturel du 18 janvier au 15 mars 1999, sous la direction scientifique d' Alain Pasquier, Paris 2001. Miller, S., Arete: Greek Sports from Ancient Sources, Berkeley 1991.Nijf, O. van, "Local heroes: athletics, festivals and elite self-fashioning in the Roman East", in Goldhill, S. (ed.), Being Greek under Rome. Cultural Identity, the Second Sophistic and the Development of Empire, Cambridge 2001, 306-334. Nijf, O. van, "Athletics, festivals and Greek identity in the Roman east", in Proceedings of the Cambridge Philological Society 45 (1999), 176-200. Patrucco, R., Lo sport nella Grecia antica, Firenze 1972. Petermandl, W., "Der verlachte Athlet. Ueberlegungen zu Sport und Humor im Altertum", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter. Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 185-200. Pleket, H.W., Sport and Ideology in the Graeco-Roman World, Klio 80 (1998), Fasc. 2, 315-324. Poliakoff, M.B., "Competition", in Papenfuss, D., Strocka, V.M. (eds.), Gab es das Griechische Wunder? Griechenland zwischen dem Ende des 6. und der Mitte des 5. Jahrhunderts v. Chr. Tagungsbeitraege des 16. Fachsymposiums der Alexander von Humboldt-Stiftung veranstaltet vom 5. bis 9. April 1999, Freiburg-im-Breisgau/Mainz 2001, 51-64. Poliakoff, M.B., Studies in the terminology of the Greek combat sports, Frankfurt-am-Main 1986. Raschke, J. (ed.), The Archaeology of the Olympics. The Olympics and other Festivals in Antiquity, Winsconsin 1988. Reilly, J., "Naked and limbless: learning about the feminine body in ancient Athens", in Koloski-Ostrow, A.O., Lyons, C.L. (eds.), Naked truths. Women, sexuality, and gender in classical art and archaeology, London/New York 1997. Roller, L.E., Funeral games in Greek literature, art and life, Ann Arbor 1977. Rollinger, R., "Schwimmen und Nichtschwimmen im Alten Orient", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter. Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 147-165. Romano, D.G., The Ancient Olympics: Athletes, Games and Heroes. Video Lecture: Institute of Mediterranean Studies Video Lecture Series, Vol. II, Philadelphia 1996. Romano, D.G., "Athletics and Mathematics in Archaic Corinth. The Origins of the Greek Stadion", CR 45 (1995), Fasc. 2, 372-373. Ryder, T.T.B., Koine Eirene. General peace and local independence in ancient Greece, London 1965. Scanlon, T.F., Eros and Greek athletics, Oxford 2002. Scanlon, T.F., Greek and Roman athletics. A bibliography with intro, commentary and index, Chicago 1984. Schmidt, D., "An unusual victory list from Keos: IG XII, 5, 608 and the dating of Bakchylides", JHS 119 (1999), 67-85. Scott, M.E., The victory of the ancients. Tactics, technology, and the use of classical precedent, Ann Arbor 1992. Specht, E., "Sport im alten Griechenland", in Specht, E. (ed.), Alltaegliches Altertum, Frankfurt am Main/Berlin/Bern/New York/Paris/Wien 1998, 75-91. Steiner, D.T., "Moving Images: Fifth-Century Victory Monuments and the Athlete's Allure", CA 17 (1998), Fasc. 1, 123-153. Stewart, A., Art, desire, and the body in ancient Greece, Cambridge 1997. Swaddling, J., The Ancient Olympic Games2, London 1999. Thompson, J.G., Sport, athletics, and gymnastics in ancient Greece, Michigan 1985. Thuillier, J.-P., "Le corps du sportif romain", in Corps romains. Textes reunis par Philippe Moreau, Grenoble 2002, 251-266. Thuillier, J.-P., Sport im antiken Rom, Darmstadt 1999. Thuillier, J.-P., "Le cirrus et la barbe. Questions d'iconographie athletique romaine", in Melanges d'Archeologie et d'Histoire de l'Ecole francaise de Rome 110 (1998), 351-382. Touny A.D. - Wenig, S., Sport in Ancient Egypt, Leipzig/Amsterdam 1970. Valavanis, P., Hysplex. The Starting Mechanism in Ancient Stadia. A Contribution to Ancient Greek Technology (University of California Publications: Classical Studies 36, translated from the Greek with an Appendix by S. Miller), Berkeley/Los Angeles/London 1999. Villard, P., "Le regime des athletes: vivre avec une sante excessive", in Corvisier, J.-N., Didier, C., Valdher, M. (eds.), Therapies, Medecine et Demographie Antiques, Arras Cedex 2001, 157-170. Visa-Ondarcuhi, V., L' Image de l' athlete d' Homere a la fin du Ve siecle avant J.-C., in Collection d' etudes anciennes, serie grecque 126, Paris 1999. Weeber, K.-W., Die unheiligen Spiele. Das antike Olympia zwischen Legende und Wirklichkeit (1991), CR 42 (1992), Fasc. 2, 390-392. Weiler, I., "Der antike Sport. Angebote zur Vermittlung", in Erdmann, E., Kloft, H. (eds.), Mensch - Natur - Technik. Perspektiven aus der Antike fuer das dritte Jahrtausend, Muenster 2002, 275-323. Weiler, I., "Zur Rezeption des griechischen Sports im Nationalsozialismus: Kontinuitaet oder Diskontinuitaet in der deutschen Ideengeschichte?", in Naef, B. (ed.), Antike und Altertumswissenschaft in der Zeit von Faschismus und Nationalsozialismus, Kolloquium Universitaet Zuerich, 14.-17. Oktober 1998, Mandelbachtal/Cambridge 2001, 267-284. Weiler, I., "Sport und Sportkritik in der Spaetantike: Kaiser Julian als kynischer Aussenseiter?", in Ulf, C. (ed.), Ideologie - Sport - Aussenseiter, Aktuelle Aspekte einer Beschaeftigung mit der antiken Gesellschaft, Innsbruck 2000, 167-184. Willcock, M.M., "Pindar, Victory Odes: Olympians 2, 7 and 11; Nemean 4; Isthmians 3, 4 and 7", CR 46 (1996), Fasc. 2, 216-219. Wyke, M. (ed.), Gender and the Body in the Ancient Mediterranean, Oxford 1998. Yalouris, N., Olympia, Muenchen 1972. Younger, J.G., "Bronze Age Representations of Aegean bull-leaping", AJA 80 (1976), 125-137.Greek BibliographyΓιαλούρης, Ν. (επιμ.), Οι Ολυμπιακοί αγώνες στην Αρχαία Ελλάδα, Αθήνα 1982. Παπαχατζής, Ν., Παυσανίου Ελλάδος Περιήγησις, Βιβλία 5 και 6: Ηλιακά, Αθήνα 1979. Σπαθάρη, Έ., Το Ολυμπιακό Πνεύμα, Αθήνα 1992. Αργυρός, Α., Οι πρώτοι εν Αθήναις διεθνείς Ολυμπιακοί Αγώνες του 1896, Αθήναι 1896. Arnold, P., Οι Ολυμπιακοί Αγώνες. Αθήνα 1896-Σεούλ 1988, Αθήνα 1988. Beck, C. (ed.), Οι Ολυμπιακοί Αγώνες, 776 π.Χ.-1896, Αθήναι 1896. Γαβριηλίδης, Β., Η Ελλάς κατά τους Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνας του 1896: πανελλήνιον εικονογραφημένον λεύκωμα, Αθήναι 1896. Γκάγκαλης, Καζής, Ιωαννίδης, Περιγραφή των εν Αθήναις πρώτων Διεθνών Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, Αθήναι 1896. Δολιανίτης, Γ., Δημήτριος Βικέλας. Η προσφορά του στην αναβίωση των Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων, Αθήνα 1994. Ζάππας, Ε., Μέγα Βιογραφικό Λεξικό Η δόξα του αθλητισμού. Η ιστορία του ελληνικού αθλητισμού και οι διεθνείς του επιτυχίες, Δήμος Αθηναίων - Πολιτισμικός Οργανισμός, Αθήνα 2000. Μανιτάκης, Π., 100 χρόνια Νεοελληνικού Αθλητισμού, 1830-1930, Athens χ.χ. Παγών, Γ., Περίληψις της Γυμναστικής, Αθήναι 1837. Παυλίνης, Ε., Ιστορία της Γυμναστικής, Αθήναι 1953. Σβολόπουλος, Χ., Γδοντέλλης, Α. (εκδ.), Λεύκωμα Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων. 776 π.Χ. - 1896-1980, Αθήνα 1980. Σκιαδάς, Ε., 100 χρόνια νεώτερη ελληνική ολυμπιακή ιστορία. Επιτροπή Ολυμπιακών Αγώνων 1896-1996, Αθήνα 1996. Συμεωνίδης, Α., Σπύρος Λούης: Η αληθινή του ιστορία, Αθήνα 1985. Ταρασουλέας, Α., Ολυμπιάδες στην Αθήνα (1896, 1906), Αθήνα 1988. Χρυσάφης, Ι., Οι σύγχρονοι Διεθνείς Ολυμπιακοί Αγώνες, Αθήναι 1930.Or are you that much of an expert to call all of them bad sources...and those ARE great sources.If you remain at your position,whatever it is (since you seem to avoid answering a concrete question), please, for the third time, do tell us what is WRONG about information given so far concerning Olympic victors, since you obviously have some other information I missed. Please correct me. Let us all learn something.Or have you realized by now that you misjudged something here.
I was referring to the lists of Hippias, Pindar, and Pausanias
And they show other results? So they introduced in from five to ten more victors from one certain city (thereby becoming a city with the most Olympic victors instead of Sparta) ...or denied many of those Spartan I presented. Now I saw different catalogs, but no change was so radical that would make Spartans not the most successful ones in the Games. I am sure you will not mind me asking what are then the results for let's say games of 708 BC, 624 BC,620 BC,616 BC,612 BC,608 BC,600 BC, 596 BC, 592 BC, 588 BC, 508 BC in wrestlingand 716 BC,700 BC,684 BC,680 BC,676 BC,668 BC, 664 BC, 660 BC, 656 BC,648 BC ,640 BC, 636 BC, 632 BC, 628 BC, 624 BC, 620 BC, 612 BC,604 BC,596 BC,592 BC,580 BC,552 BC in stadion708 BC, 676 BC,672 BC,668 BC, 500 BC in pentathlon664 BC, 660 BC, 656 BC in diaulos. etc....according to the lists you possess. This was so far very good online source on Olympic victors.http://www.fhw.gr/olympics/ancient/en/db.html
Έχει ύψος 0,48 εκ., περίμετρο 1,90 εκ. και βάρος 243,63 κιλά. Από τον τύπο των γραμμάτων που υπάρχουν σε αυτό τοποθετείται στον 3ο π.Χ. αιώνα. Σήμερα βρίσκεται στο εθνικό μας μουσείο. 2. Παρόμοιο βάρος βρίσκεται στο μουσείο της αρχαίας Ολυμπίας. Βρέθηκε στο Πελόπιο και ζυγίζει 143 κιλά. Φέρει επιγραφή βουστροψηδόν, δηλαδή δεξιά, αριστερά και πάλι δεξιά, όπως ζευγαρίζουν τα βόδια. Πάνω σε αυτό το βάρος είναι χαραγμένα τα ακόλουθα: ΒΥΒΟΝ ΤΕΤΕΡΙ ΧΕΡΙ ΥΠΕΡΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ ΜΥΠΕΡΕΒΑΛΕ Ο ΦΑΛΑ, δηλαδή, ο Βύβων με το ένα του χέρι με πέταξε πάνω από το κεφάλι του, ο γιος του Φάλα.Bybon son of Phola, has lifted me over [his] head with one hand.Are you a fan of Bybon or weight lifter ? ???http://www.olympic-weights.org/history-of-weightlifting/history-of-weightlifting-in-ancient-greece-and-rome
I was impressed with the inscription. I am familiar enough with modern weight lifting and power lifting well,as well as the records.It made the inscription even more impressive. While you mentioned that text there is a nice line there - Ένα από τα πλέον αγαπητά αθλήματα, στο οποίο επιδίδονταν οι αρχαίοι μας πρόγονοι, ήταν η άρση βαρών. Which basically says weight lifting was among most popular athletic activities among ancients. As for the Spartans and Olympic victories...They were the most successful city state with the most numerous victors. I say again and will back it up. If you know of some other lists, which I doubt, please do present them here.Stadion - Spartan victories in total are 28 until 394 BC (22 until 460's - others only later in Hellenistic and Roman era,none in Classical). Krotonians are next with 12. Athens with 10. Others appear fewer times.Pentathlon - is very badly preserved, worse than others, and Spartans have 5 recorded victories..no other city appears more than two times until late Hellenistic and Roman era. But it became a chaos then anyway.Wrestling - Spartans had 11 victories in Archaic times, Krotonians are next with 6..All others appear few times..Here of course are big gaps, especially in Arhcaic era, but it only means both Spartans and Krotonians probably had few victories more(rule of probability). Krotonians ceased to win after their downfall in 480. Spartans had the same faith around the same time.Boys competition - Spartan and Mantinean boys appear the most with 4 and 5 victories until 460's..But Spartan boys won wrestling twice, pentathlon and stadion once..Mantineans boys always boxing.(Spartans did not compete in boxing or Pankration).As I said there are huge gaps so no definite conclusions can be made, but if from fragmentary evidence we find such consistency among victors from Sparta, you can imagine what would the complete list be..Rules of probability, like representative sample or preliminary results in elections.They never stray too far from the expectation done with a certain sample. Note the stadion list which is the most complete for comparison. Now I am curious what is wrong about my statement that Spartans were the best wrestlers with the most victories in games in Olympia??? What Olympic records or list of victors are you referring to that is different from results above. I am very curious.
1) Very interesting topic indeed…Surface color and overall appearance of bronze armor pieces depend on bronze alloy, maintenance and usage. Popular notion is the following was the appearance of bronze armor at the time. Thanks mostly to the reenactor societies.http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/113main.jpg http://www.manningimperial.com/catalogue/331main.jpgBut there is no corresponding proof for this whatsoever. Modern notions of clean and nice etc...don't apply to ancient times which were all but... There is a number of polishing techniques and phases, I use LOW and HIGH terms for polish to make a difference between them. Xenophon mentions bronze cleaning/polishing but in no way did he imply it was high mirror gloss, why did we presume that today, I am puzzled, when there are much more low polishing techniques, easier to do and with certain purpose. And I will soon explain how all other evidence points further away from the high mirror gloss.First the question of purpose of polish. Cleaning bronze preserves it since it protects it from so called bronze decease, it removes all kind of dirt and water residue in cracks and dents.Especially in decorated pieces. High polish serves only one - aesthetic purpose.If ancient Greeks found high gloss mirror shine(if achievable back then) aesthetically the only acceptable state of bronze then all bronzes would be in the same state. It would be very strange that they liked regular patinated bronzes in every part of life,but disliked the same state of their battle armor - which is in addition the least artistic piece of them all, which unlike others serves clear, non artistic purpose. If beauty was the only criteria, then artistic pieces would be the first to be in that high polish shiny state. And they weren't nor would it be physically possible. What is more, pottery is often painted to mimic bronze, but not in yellow but in black color. Look at the Vix crater for bronze one http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1388/1385712833_c7ea9cd764_m.jpg, and this clay painted to mimic bronze one http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=13444842. Both from the end of the 6th BC. First one is a Spartan piece of art.So conclusion, aesthetics wise, nothing suggests golden mirror shine was considered beautiful, on the contrary.Also, if those Spartan helots at Plateia who couldn't tell apart Persian gold from Persian bronze, knew only that high polish state of bronze,they would clearly tell it apart, gold being very different than the material they are used to.. If they knew only bright yellow shiny bronze,they would be familiar with it enough not to mix it up with very soft and different looking gold. On the other hand, if they are used to bronze that is not that shiny and so golden in color, better say more dull and darker bronze(regardless of the color,olive or liverish) and are faced with the bronze which resembles gold in color or shine, they would think all golden colored pieces are in fact gold..Those bronze pieces would not look familiar to them and they would mix up the gold and the bronze.I get that point.We have no proof whatsoever of the state of armor in archaic or classical times in Greece. So more or less we are speculating. Armor was probably found in all sorts of shades and states of preservation.Depending on many factors.Some armor pieces are extremely crude,some are extremely fine.So naturally the finish was a specter of finishes.BUt...The only clear purpose of polishing armor in that time is preservation, and cleaning. Not allowing it to develop the patina that hurts the material, and not allow dirt and other kinds of residue to remain on the panoply. More or less the same practice we have in modern armies...That is achieved with far lower polish than mirror shine. Was it nice, pretty, astonishing, frightening or none of those is pretty much a speculation..and comes down to a personal taste. I personally don't find shiny armor frightening, but more on that later on... And all those literary evidence do not provide us with a clue on what exactly ancient Greeks meant by polished bronze, especially since every reasonably smooth and cleaned metal surface could be considered treated or polished,and gleams beautifully in the sun and fits into those ancient literary evidences as perfectly as mirrored bronze does.. The frightening part of shining armor so often mentioned, comes not from the color or mirror reflection (which is a modern projection since there is no reason to believe mirror finish was appreciated in antiquity as it is today, and I am certainly puzzled as what exactly is frightening about mirror shine) but from the fact it is metal shining, which then means you are up against very well armored army/hoplite, which then means they are rich and therefore well trained and equipped hoplite/s, which then means you are in a big trouble.Since you all know full panoplia, was not that common in ancient Greece, even in Archaic era since it was quite expensive.That is what is frightening about panoplia in the sun, not the polish or any other finish or the bronze color. Patina or initial protective layer,not the pale green stuff, is developed in bronze pieces in a matter of days even hours, depending on conditions and alloy. It can not be preserved as it changes,but the deterioration of material can be prevented by maintenance. To keep the constant high gloss state of the bronze piece, one would be required to polish the piece at least few times a week.If not daily. An impossible task. And for what purpose? Since every polish removes certain amount of material from the piece, what do you think how much material is removed in 10 or 20 year time of such often polishing, not to mention the inheritable pieces from fathers and grandfathers..Just calculate. If they weren't polished so often, then the armor was in different state in different times of the year..usually in patinated state, and only sometimes mirror shine.Why giving it high gloss then at all? It makes no sense, especially with what is said above.That look has no correlation in the Greek art. Also, much of the modern preservation and restoration techniques determine the look of some pieces of armor in museums. Do you think this is the original look of this piece in 5 BC? It isn't. rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/commons/...nsammlungen_4330.jpg Also there are ways in which the Hellenistic greaves from earlier posts can be preserved in that state in museums...But only because they are intentionally kept in that state, in controlled environment,today..They are not to be used outside for very tough purpose,as in antiquity.What puzzles me about high mirror polish idea is how were then those incised and so richly detailed helmets and shield pieces polished to such shine..Dimensions are very small and decorations and shapes very elaborate. One more nail in the coffin. Of course, we should differ the basic film developed on the bronze from poorly maintained bronze piece. All of those are called patinas,but are very different. Also, what comes to my mind is ancient hoplites were not that gentle towards their equipment as we are today,especially that expensive one...same as those Germans weren't to theirs in WWII,yet I protect and preserve my WWII helmet as if it was made from glass. So my verdict would be ancient armor was kept clean with relative ease and polished for that purpose, but not to a high gloss state, since it serves no purpose but damages the bronze in return - not even aesthetically pleasing since there is enough proof other things were found pleasing instead. The actual color of the basic film would differ greatly, due to the many factors, and we could certainly not point the finger into one particular shade...Modern attempts to reconstruct and reenact serve other, more important purposes, than giving photographic image of antiquity,which is, in my opinion hardly achievable. Anyway,we will need more investigation on the matter.2) No, my mistake..Dyed. Language barrier.3) Well there are many points I will have to disagree. Especially as someone who lives off the bodybuilding sport. This man, as ancients were in average, is around 2cm shorter than average man today. And around 100kg. Spartans were trained from the age of seven, exercises they had to do certainly made their bodies larger and stronger than average Greek. Though average Greek back then was certainly stronger than average internet age man. He probably would look even more ''impressive'', not impressive for any bodybuilder though..you can trust me.These are the guys doing similar stuff ancient Spartans did, kayak, shot put, wrestling...they are not using any steroids they have nothing with bodybuilding except the resistance training, which Spartans had as ell, and have better physique than the Spartan from the pic.http://www.svet.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/tanjug-212-290x222.jpghttp://static.politika.co.rs/uploads/rubrike/225876/i/1/Marko-Novakovic.jpghttp://www.mondo.rs/slike/vesti/002/493/v249361p0.jpghttps://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTClqsp8HDuBdrfL8riZVFOOeG3hRIz9A4Y62UTMFj6X4N8DnbkWwWhat I want to say is..Spartans were master wrestlers with the most victories in Olympic games.No weight categories back then I remind you again. So biggest wins. Same is with pankration, a big thing in Sparta as well. Sport world in general was based more on the strength than endurance, judging by the athletic events. Armor that weighted around 20+ kgs was not designed for lightweight warriors, nor was the pretty slow and still way of hoplite warfare. So everything implies great strength was needed, as well as the so called strength endurance. Running was down to a minimum if at all, in Spartan case, there was no running in battle..etc..So you can be pretty sure Greeks were heavy fighters, especially trained ones like Spartans..Not ripped like that movie 300 of course, that is stupid..But lumberjack strong.As guys above.One more thing, food. Spartans ate well, and their youth were stronger than the others, literary sources implied this, and youth victor list confirmed. There is no muscle without food, and Spartans had no problem with food, since their unique system enabled them to have all they needed (difference has to be made with ONE LESSON from agoge training where they have to steal for food, it is not a general practice just lesson).On account of your last remark. The classifications of strength are:Maximum strength - the greatest force that is possible in a single maximum contractionElastic strength - the ability to overcome a resistance with a fast contractionStrength endurance - the ability to express force many times overAbsolute strength - The maximum force an athlete can exert with his or her whole body, or part of the body, irrespective of body size or muscle size (lifting weight, pushing something...)Relative strength - The maximum force exerted in relation to body weight or muscle size. (doing a pull up, push up etc..)War and that kind of effort is absolute strength and muscle size does mean greater absolute strength. Arm size does not guarantee the strength since it can be fat over there, but big muscles mean great strength.
He mentions them in an affirmative way, or at best in ''may have been'' way (hopla) when it certainly couldn't have been,that is the problem. Institutionalized pederasty, hopla for shield, Laconian sword etc are false facts..others are anecdotes which became facts today because they were based solely on some 2 century AD work, highly influenced by Roman era propaganda (which seems ancient enough for 21st century scholar when in fact it is 7 centuries apart from what it is describing), work which was already proven false in many ways...He is using all of them as unquestionable facts.It took years to convince people that Spartans had lambda on their shields only from 420's BC onward..It is still very strong in the minds of people. I have no doubt these other myths will be hard to abandon, because most of them look so damn cool. right 8)
Plato, of course. Now, are we talking about homosexuality in Sparta or homosexuality in Greece as a whole. Maybe we need another separate topic for this? Also it is important to notice homosexuality does not appear either in art or literature before Classical time, even late Classical time. Labeling societies, some of which, like Sparta ended their glorious history somewhere in this period, on account of some practice geographically or socially far away is devastating to history…I can just imagine what would some men 2000 years from now think about our sexual practices, will US and Brazil be labeled as nations in which homosexuality is encouraged and all men love boys, or other men? There is certainly a great deal of evidence pointing to it(by the same twisted logics that puts institutionalized pederasty in Sparta, of all the poleis). Can we make that kind of conclusion then if we can label Spartans INDIRECTLY(using practices of other parts of Greece), and only from bad translation of two simple words…I have a great example of this in my own language. We have a few centuries old song that says ''The boy, Lazarus, was scolded by his mother''The exact same word for ''scold'' is used as a very common slang for sex or better say act of giving sex to someone, literary f******. In fact is is the most common term today, alongside polite one used by females which is ''sleeping with''.I can only imagine some German or British (most common ones in Greek case) scholar coming here saying it was normal in our society for mothers to engage in sex with their sons ??? ::) We would laugh to that.The same happened with Greeks. History-or at least a version of narration- can be used to promote an agenda.But let's stick to Sparta. Sparta had no single homosexual representation in either art or poetry. Not one. While there were many that were heterosexual representations. Also by understanding the Sparta system you will find out how hard it would actually be to be homosexual there, let alone encouraged to be like that, as if someone could make you... With understanding the erastis and eromenoi words in Greek, and their meaning, foundation on homosexuality in Sparta ceases to exist. I am of course not saying there were never homosexual cases in Sparta (to be more exact and correct myself we are not talking about adult male homosexuality which almost never appears in Greece, and when it does it is punished, but paedophilia so I am not sure why homosexuals even defend this mirrage), there always is, in every society, even parents misuse their children for sex. But the practice was not only frowned upon but forbidden in Sparta. (no doubt it happened on separate occasions)Erastis & Eromenos (Lover and Beloved or Inspirer and Listener(why does this have to be homosexual I don't understand - remember they were no English so other languages have words in different meanings)) were not of physical nature and when they were it was considered immoral most of the times. All who have read ancient texts notice the use of Erastis & Eromenos sometimes as a good thing but when physical love is involved it is of an immoral nature.From my readings i have understood that it was a composite issue and view.The Erastis/eromenos bond remained important later in life (don't know where do you come from but in Medditeranean godfathers are very important in our life, and that originated from erastis and eromenoi relationship), and the fact that it does is evidence that it was far more and other than sexual bond. One of my favorite instances of twisting evidence to match preconceptions or agenda is the citing of a tale about a Spartan warrior who died fighting over his Erastes rather than let his body be taken. As if there is no bond between men that is worth dying over unless it involves genital insertion! On the contrary, as proved numerous times in history..I myself would fight far worse if the loved one was endangered as well. And then another where Agiselaos' son would not seek preference for a friend with out getting sex in return.That Agiselaos (look at the date of this tale) spends much of his time fighting the urge to play with Persian youths is unreliable evidence for what happened at home. As I said, pedophiles did exist, hence the laws against them in Sparta. I also enjoy the fact that scholars have taken the fact that anal intercourse was known colloquially in CLASSICAL Athens as "Laconian style" as evidence for homosexuality. Perhaps modern scholars are unaware that you can do this with a woman too! ::)In a culture where women marry at a comparatively late age, economic pressures push to small family size, and birth control options are limited, this becomes an important option. :- Girls in many societies today do that for the same reason. We have more evidence for Spartan sexuality from primary sources than we do for the mechanics of hoplite combat, yet so often this is ignored and anecdotes or analogies are strung together in their place. I'll let the ancients speak: Xenophon is quite clear, though so often dismissed, is clear when he states (Constitution of the Lakedaimonians.2.1): [12] I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favors. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys. [13] The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other. [14] I am not surprised, however, that people refuse to believe this. For in many states the laws are not opposed to the indulgence of these appetites. Aristotle specifically addresses the homo eroticism of military cultures and tells us Sparta is different from those who allow opened homosexuality (and he is no apologist for Sparta as has been claimed for Xenophon). http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/aristotle- sparta.html "the legislator wanted to make the whole state hardy and temperate, and he has carried out his intention in the case of the men, but he has neglected the women, who live in every sort of intemperance and luxury. The consequence is that in such a state wealth is too highly valued, especially if the citizens fall under the dominion of their wives, after the manner of most warlike races, except the Celts and a few others who openly approve of male loves. The old mythologer would seem to have been right in uniting Ares and Aphrodite, for all warlike races are prone to the love either of men or of women. This was exemplified among the Spartans in the days of their greatness; many things were managed by their women." You really have to twist these quotes, or dismiss them, to render the meaning unclear. Sadly, true homosexuals in the modern sense of adult men involved in a romantic relationships were not free at all in ancient Greece to live openly that way. It is a shame that modern groups point to the greater acceptance of the physical use of men as a sexual outlet, but only if you were the "active" role, in the ancient world to bolster support for an emotional connection. Especially since the emotional tie, without sex, was much more accepted then.Also key to the subject is understanding modern terminology. Homoerotic is not homosexual, a point that seems lost on so many authors. When commercials market perfume to women by having half-naked female models parade around the screen they are tapping into homoerotic imagery. Women find the image attractive and erotic. They do not want to have sex with her...I myself was a Greeco Roman wrestler for decades, I studied at Faculty of Sports, we all admired well toned and buff pals, heck guys even compare and compete in their size...yet no one ever said there is any homosexuality among guys today even though they were naked and made comments or admired other male body.This is important because the image of boys "at the age when they are most beautiful" would have been equally likely to have been used by an ancient Greek beer commercial as a pretty girl. They could assign eros equally. There is a huge difference between saying that there was a homoerotic element to the link between "lovers" and assigning obligate intercourse.
There is no amount of research that allows bragging, since we never know enough.I was the one who was attacked if I recall, even ''safely classified as a roll''. I can not be held responsible for your lack of knowledge on the subject.
This is incorrect. Most scholars still adhere to the homosexual mentor-ship relationship.
What is incorrect please?That myth has been debunked long ago, the fact many scholars still claim that is due to the many factors, none of which have any influence on historical factual truth. Many of them still claim Spartans were throwing babies down the pit, but in 2007 archaeology proved different...etc,examples are numerous.If you don't know how exactly it was debunked I will be happy to explain.In short. Not a single evidence other than the WRONG translation of two words in Greek are evidence of homosexual relationship. While there is an abundance of evidence against it. Judging by the evidence you could even call Spartan society a homophobic one (since WE KNOW they had laws against it).Almost every scholar today translates MOLON LAVE as ''come and take them'', while any Greek could tell you translation is very different. Bad thing is English and US historians are teaching Greek history, and not many of them were actually in Greece let alone speaking Greek language (thinking about B.Hughes reading epitaph to 300 in some strange language that was supposed to be ancient Greek)
Yes, unfortunately. Since he is basically reinforcing the very old (Victorian age) myth and misconceptions about Spartan society.From the top of my head:Mentor and student relationship being sexual(homosexual) is purely 19th century idea, born with a simple misinterpretation of Greek language. And scholars long abandoned that one, even homosexuality in general let alone INSTITUTIONALIZED pederasty and surogatte fathering ???. Cartledge went on a on, twisting the whole Spartan society to fit this nonsense and of course came to some strikingly odd conclusions. I wander why would such an expert dismiss very clear evidence against homosexuality in Sparta, by Xenophon, Aristotlee etc, not to mention other implications, with famous heterosexual poets, even anecdotes from Herodotus, archaeological evidence of men and women in marriage, and complete lack of any artistic depiction or literary evidence of anything other than heterosexual relationship...politics?Maybe.Cartledge says hoplite may have well be taken the name of the shield - hopla, although for the last decade it is a well known fact term hopla means all equipment for war,including shield which was an aspis. So hoplite is ''man in full equipment for war''Insisting on the lack of Spartan cultural achievement disregarding the fact Spartans had a famous and unique style of pottery painting, bronze work found all the way in France, on of the seven wise men etc etc.Insisting on repression done over the helots when it is now clear LAKONIAN helots were not treated badly nor did they think they were slaves, and even enjoyed more rights and better life than the free men of other poleis. They have even chosen to die alongside Spartans at Thermopyles.Setting the crisis of Sparta at the end of Peloponnesian war rather than before the start of it, consequently moving the peak of their power to post Persian invasion era. Which is a big big miss. Dismissing there the clear evidence of catastrophe of 465 BC. (where it suits him he will accept plainly some nonsense from Pausanias or other, Roman authors, but where it doesn't suit him he will dismiss the clear archaeological evidence of a great catastrophe, backed by contemporary literary evidence.)Reinforcing the never mentioned mustache shaving custom, especially in the time of king Leonidas.It is a well known fact there was no such thing as type of sword called ''Laconian sword'' mentioned by him, let alone Spartans being famous for it.Marriage customs as well...just pure idiocy. Many many reinforced myths and very strange choice of centuries that were covered in this book make it just another Osprey class work.All in all, his work is highly influenced by anecdotal history, mostly by Roman era authors and later, and they have been suspicious for a long period of time now. It is striking how such an expert can fall into such a trap, of tabloid facts. They do seem catchy, for some homework doing pupil in distant land of US, but almost none of them are true.
Well it looks the guy won't answer and thus can be safely classified as a roll who just wanted to do a drive-by. I may change my mind if he comes back but that is my preliminary call.
Maybe the guy just doesn't have enough free time as yourself. Manners and your classification practices aside...European history is a very broad term, so only 20 years of research is not something to brag about. Especially since you obviously did not spend too much time in the Greek section.Anyhow, I should have been more clearer, and maybe make a difference between unwanted and sick and explain myself a bit better. Remember the point of all this is that abandoning of sick or unwanted children was not exclusively Spartan custom, and also that there was no infanticide in Sparta at all. So, for Middle Ages:,,Whereas theologians and clerics preached sparing their lives, newborn abandonment continued as registered in both the literature record and in legal documents.[4] According to William L. Langer, exposure in the Middle Ages "was practiced on gigantic scale with absolute impunity, noticed by writers with most frigid indifference".[43] At the end of the 12th century, notes Richard Trexler, Roman women threw their newborns into the Tiber river in daylight.[44]Unlike other European regions, in the Middle Ages the German mother had the right to expose the newborn.[45] In Gotland, Sweden, children were also sacrificed.[46]In the High Middle Ages, abandoning unwanted children finally eclipsed infanticide. Unwanted children were left at the door of church or abbey, and the clergy was assumed to take care of their upbringing. This practice also gave rise to the first orphanages.''Boswell, John Eastburn (1984). "Exposition and oblation: the abandonment of children and the ancient and medieval family". American Historical Review 89 (1): 10–33.Langer, William L. (1974). "Infanticide: a historical survey". History of Childhood Quarterly 1 (3): 353–366. PMID 11614564.Trexler, Richard (1973). "Infanticide in Florence: new sources and first results". History of Childhood quarterly 1: 99.Westrup, C.W. (1944). Introduction to Roman Law. London: Oxford University Press. pp. 249.Turville-Petre, Gabriel (1964). Myth and Religion of the North: The Religion of Ancient Scandinavia. NY: Holt, Rinehart & Winston. pp. 253PS: If we are to speak in street language, what I am willing to do is more of an overkill than a drive-by.
Don't forget Retsina and Ouzo. Retsina is one of the nastiest things I ever drank. The only thing nastier I can think of is Bosnian Rakija which is a kind of Plum schnaps. Rakija can probably take the paint off the space shuttle, it can definitely take out the lining of your stomach.
A matter of taste...Here in Balkans Retsina is one of the best tasting white wines,unique..I personally don't like either Ouzo or Metaxa, though Greek vines in General are great.Rakija is served all over Balkans, but it is known as a Serb national drink...Also except plum, it is made from all kinds of fruit.And can be pretty rough, but doesn't have to be..though foreign stomach might not be used to any of it.
I can give you several big flaws in Cartledge's theories which will make you question that ''expert'' part..I am not nearly as famous as he is, yet he failed to answer few of my questions. Most famous one including pederasty issues. He forgot to keep up with the pace of modern research…as did many of them, skipping the 2007 excavations in Sparta, Taygetos range for example, which proved there was no infanticide by throwing babies down the cliff, and that only male prisoners and criminals were killed there..Cartledge did change this traditional view a bit, but not enough for him to grasp the custom of GREEK people leaving VERY sick,DYING children in SACTRED places for the will of Gods.Same thing done until very recently even in Christianity.He is a big expert on archeology of Laconia in general though.P.Krentz is a revelation to me. Especially his Nature of hoplite combat paper..PURE GOLD!And Krentz's Marathon is magnificent as well. Great read, great points...
You can not date more precisely than year and month..part of the month at beast..So anyone who comes to me with the date of 25th September for Thermopylae is not a serious individual.
That book is full of outdated ''facts'' that are now proven to be myths. This book, unlike Sparta and Lakonia: A Regional History, from the same author, disappointed me a lot, and questioned Mr. Cartledge's knowledge a lot…Pederasty, Lakonian sword, infanticide etc…those are the things such a scholar should know are not true.Spartans suffered heavily at the start of 5th century BC...Argive wars in 490's. Persian invasion in 480's, after that Argive and Tegean wars in late 470's. Immediately after that Sparta was hit by a cataclysmic earthquake (approx 7.2 Richter, at least 10 Mercalli) which killed and destroyed most of the Sparta,followed by a revolt of Messenian helots,which took 4 years to stop..Sparta never recovered, and by the end of that century, what was 8000 strong Spartan males in 480 BC fell to only 400 in 420's. Enough said...Greece in general fell into a large crisis, war techniques had to be adjusted, previous system was unsustainable in Sparta, men power was not enough,they were decimated,and the system crumbled. Mind set was changed, they were no more an elite. They improvised heavily until 370 BC, being a mere shadow of former glory, when they fell at last.It is very important to grasp Spartans from 600-470 BC are not the Spartans from 470-430 and especially not the ones from 420-370. Many things changed although the name remained the same.
