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I am surprised that you posed that question.
My question was should we let more in? [tongue in cheek] #3 on your list proposed shooting them; at least Swift only had them (and us) eating their young.
Many people, ... have a real problem dealing with the fact that society expects them to work a regular job. ...just disorganized, others are lazy and shiftless, still others ... bridle at being told what to do. ...some ...goofy, ...too fey ...others who find the idea of holding a regular job to be foolish. ...--bruised a bit by the society... sick--no. I have read that all nations have these "outsiders" even the Japanese!
Sorry to sound cold but not the job of gov't to babysit them.
It was not so long ...factory whistle and ... clock did not regulate ...lives ...more in tune with their nature and their desires rather than ...wishes of the master of cubicles.
Even then the ones that didn't work didn't do very well; in most cases everyone had a role they could fill... even little kids could be taught to scare the birds away from the newly planted plots.
You must have had students to whom the whole concept of responsibility for time and place, or an ordered life and of the necessity of obeying orders was either absurd or whimsical.
Indeed I did, but I'm at a lose to see how we can just write off these folks (perhaps better stated... write them a pass for life)... we don't have much call for mystics and oracles these days. Perhaps we need more organizations like ACORN to put some of these folks to doing something productive [again, tongue in cheek]
So, in my opinion we are faced with the fact that these will always be with us and must be provided foreither out of Christian charity or some other motive such as the fear they may steal from us, damage our shrubbery or eat our dogs. I refer you back to the numbered list. Look carefully at number 3--it was Hitler's choice.
Indeed and a big reason it stinks... if we are going to give people something, give them a chance. I was fortunate enough to grow up with mentors from the so-called Greatest Generation... grew up in the Depression, moved, (many went right from CCC) to the military during WWII, came home and got educated on the GI bill and rebuilt America. We gave them an opportunity... not stuff. We have become stuck in a situation of our own creation when we stopped giving people a hand and started giving handouts... or at least when many people realized we'd give them more and more if we were afraid they'd "...steal from us, damage our shrubbery or eat our dogs." Get back to getting people to work on jobs that mean something to the society... not organizing the renters and and registering voters... building things and restoring the country. CCC built many needed things and many fine men... perhaps we need to try that one again. Seems we'd both like to help these folks; we just are looking at solutions that are 180 out.
You may be right--bread and circuses--an old formula that works, but once headed down that road youcannot go back without enormous risk. Food stamps are a modern example as are valium scripts.
I remember hearing a radio piece on NPR several years back; they interviewed a workablity trainer from the Oregon Welfare Dept. As I remember Oregon had a 5 yr window tht a person could be on the dole and they were helped to make the transistion... (CA offers services w/o limit, I've seen third generation recipients)... his story was this: Working with a client and progressing rahter well. Got to the point of needing to prime cliebnt for job interviews... client was worried about getting there as he didn't have a clock. Long story short they had to get the guy an alarm clock and teach him how to set it! Even most my 10th graders allowed they'd had an alarm clock since about 5th grade.As you note willy, we already have the bread and circuses going strong... best we can do is not let anymore Vandals or Visigoths in from the north, eh?
AHA! Scared you right?
Not any more than thousands of others that seem to think the Constitution is better than something Nancy, Harry, Barry, Di, Babs, and the rest would come up with.
The idea of a second CC scares lots of people. You recall that the first was called to adjust the Articles of Confederation--NOT to write a new Constitution. ....
Madison, at least, went in with the idea that the Articles were beyond repair... read them over they're a mess; very surprising that we functioned as well as we did using them. Mainly inertia from the Rev, as I see it.
I have serious doubts that normal and peaceful means will suffice to bring about meaningful change inour governing process. Perhaps next election we will choose a person who can bring us together again, but until then we will live in our tribal enclaves (some walled) hurling invective at people who have the temerity to disagree with us. I also doubt that we will ever have another CC--so where does that leave me--perplexed and horrified. My wife just told me that every day for the net two decades 10,000 people a day (baby Boomers) will be eligible for SS and Medicare (Source--George Will )
See attached photo as to answer the first part; but I think the midterm elections may right the ship of state enough to limp into port by 2012. I do agree there likely won't be a CC but if ther is the end is near. We have no Madisons that are apparent. As to the last part... I've got about 2 1/2 years to get there. Hope I get there before my insurance from my old job gets the Cadillac tax applied to it or the district I worked for renegs on the deal I retired under.
I sincerely hope that we can find a government that, staying within the Constitution, can find a way outof the box we have nailed ourselves into most securely.
First we must find a government that will read and understand the Constitution... the last several have been sadly lacking there.
Enjoy the day--read Federal paper No. 10 and be sure to grease the Maxim gun.
No... I'm more the Howth Mauser type. 8)
... I just cannot accept the fact that cutting taxes will guarantee absolutelythat jobs (paying a living wage) will be automatically created. ....
But it is likely that more taxes will do even less....
.... You said put welfare recipients to work doing menial labor. ...I would have all white collar criminals (money thieves) assigned duties at public places cleaning urinals, toilets and drains. ....
...we need that done too. Good ideas, both.
.... ...--teachers are being laid off, libraries closed. schools closed, wages stagnant and a job market that is for all practical purposes crawling along as though in great pain. Many of us are hurting and the government--charged with the responsibility of looking out for the general welfare of the people--will do what it determines as necessary. Hoover, often wrongly maligned for his lack of concern in the 1929-1932 crisis, could not get his mind around giving people stuff. He thought it bad for their character! How ironic--the great Belgium food relief coordinator harbored such an idea. Many people feel the same today--do you?
Give people opportunities... not stuff. Give people a sense of mission not entitlement. I don't see that happening; we are too used to the gov't giving us stuff.
The Constitutional Convention was held because the Articles of Confederation could not address the problems the leaders needed to deal with. It was going to be impossible to modify the document we had in place and hence the Constitution. The Constitution, as written, can (if people will heed the Jefferson quote I supplied); it is the leaders that fall short today. We don't need a Constitutional Convention, we need a government made up of people that follow the Constitution we have. Given the argle-bargle to get the HC Bill through who know what kind of coat-hanger abortion we'd end up with for a constitution if we started with a fresh sheet of paper.Your remark about Maxim guns confirms the position of the anti-Federalists, to require a Bill of Rights tha
qt recognizes our natural rights... including the right to keep and bear arms. Sorry if this position seems a bit cross or testy but I take this seriously.... in the best interests of many elements of the society that the sheep do not ask questions, but fueledby horrid entertainment, booze, TV, drugs and cliches, and crippled by a sub-par education, work, obey,borrow money so as to consume products and essentially be good sheep--eat, excrete, procreate, consume and die.Also: You might get in trouble quoting Jefferson--stay out of Texas!
Self-leveling though... these types often don't vote or if they do they follow the lead of their bosses, preachers, pork-producer Congressperson, or just whoever tells them more of what they want to hear. Back to "learnin'" them to ask questions and carefully judge the answers.Texas or not I'll stick with Jefferson on the Constitution."On every question of construction, carry ourselves back to thetime when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spiritmanifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823
I cannot speak for all but I did spend a good deal of time on the Constitution and Bill of Rights with my students (8th grade). In CA the kids have US History in 5th, 8th, and 11th grades; US Gov't (National, State, and Local) in 12th grade for a semester… this is backed up by a semester of econ.While this looks like a great deal of coverage, there is alot to cover; my emphasis on the Const. is sort of unusual in my experience but I see so much ignorance of what that document actually says (and means) that it became something of a mission. Spent time on the BofR since most folks have that completely upside-down too.
.... ... a friend, somewhat to the left of myself, claims that a sheep that is knowledgeable is a dangerous sheep. He might ask questions. Let the 20 percent be aware and school the other 80 percent for their proper role as cubicle dwellers, clerks and assemblers of imported parts in what we call factories. I think he is not completely wrong.
In a word (several actually) your friend is completely wrong. We are supposed to ask questions... our government is supposed to answer those questions to our satisfaction in a timely manner; if they don't we... "...the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."In another thread we spoke of revolution by ballots rather than bullets... this, I believe is what the founders intended, holding the bullets only as a last option. When 80% don't know the backstory the violent option becomes far more likely in my humble opinion. better an informed sheep than the goat.
.... Principled opposition is not being heard, I too wish the debate in this country over this and many other issues could be more civil. ...people that try to be civil are more often than not ignored. The only way to be heard anymore is to be radical. Therein lies the pity.... Everyone (all sides) is too busy screaming to really have a discussion.... Health Care is a poster child ... Congress... would rather pass a flawed bill than listen.... This is especially true given... they will likely lose their majority in one or both houses come November. You know it is getting bad when congressional staffers tell constituents that calling in opposition to the bill is "harassment".
"Hassment" is becoming the new "bigot"; a catch-all epithet that brands one intolerant, intolerable, and mental. I have serious concerns and believe you are spot on with your post.
This will not happen--you are free to pursue happiness without any guarantee of grasping it. Considerlife from the perspective of a really stupid deformed black dwarf born without teeth. He is free torun the race for happiness just as much as Robert Redford, Paul Newman or Brad Pitt.Again--thank you for your courteous and thoughtful posts--a please to reply.
Forgot to add this to the list in the last post... I'm far too jaded to think there won't be many more entitlements issued to us in the form of mandates that the states can't possibly pay for. It's got to stop or we go down the drain. That's as courteous and thoughtful as I can be on this as I watch my state and country headed there.
... reminds me of the abolitionist response to the Dredd Scott decision--anger transcending reason.I remain optimistic in that blood will not flow in the streets this time as it did in 1861.
Thank you for the kind words; I'm sure that as time passes cooler heads will prevail and if it looks like the plan is workable those cooler heads will tweak it as necessary to get it to work at least as well as SS and Medicare. The biggest fear I have is that it will become another un or under-funded mandate to the states... they are hard pressed now as they cannot just print more money like the Feds.In the event this all heads south I hope the same people that have pushed it so hard will see the errors and fix them without hanging us any further out to dry; failing that they will need to take it out behind the barn and give it one between the eyes.
All your examples are examples of wrongs. ...two wrongs don't make a right. That applies just as much to government as it does to the individual. Just because the government can do something does not mean they should
Agreed.I do not see them as wrongs--but--nevermind. As for the rest.........................................................
Agreed--that is why blind adherence to law without consideration of circumstances is the height of idiocy.The problem is each government we hire to run the nation for four years is free to try to impose itsversion or vision on the people.
As I taught the kids; revolution with ballots not bullets; like to see that continue... we've been lucky so far that all the players put the country ahead of themselves (so far).
What we have here is factionalism rampant--an almost equally dividedpopulation on some key issues. My take is that Obama at last has decided to be the Captain of a shipthat will sail from the land of Reagan to a position left of center. Let us see how the elections 0f 2010play out. Old Turkish curse "may you live in interesting times".
All considered I'd rather take the train.Having said that I'm 10-26.
... correct when I say that most people who work openly and legally in this country arerequired to contribute (purchase) to SS up to a certain dollar point. ...both work and the purchase are not options in the real world for most people.
I agree that in most cases SS is req'd (for a time it wasn't if the employee had another pension system... CA teachers with STRS had the opt out available for a time). But having SS reduced the private pension systems since the gov't was providing one. I guess this is why there's no gov't option on the HC bill.
I am still grasping. How about automobiles. .... ...even in California--the automobile State. If you accept this then we open a door to a whole slew of mandates requiring you to purchaseinsurance, stickers, tags etc.
That is taxation in most cases and / or regulation that is less than effective... witness the large number of unlicensed and uninsured motorist in the automobile state. Part of the reason my rates are as high as they are... the enforcement of these mandates is spotty at best.
... in the Navy--many eons ago--we were required to purchase savings bonds. ... the word required is incorrect, but ...not ...by the Chief Petty Officer. I am sure you get the point. ...when I joined the Treasury department .... We were cajoled (a second cousin of required) into purchasing ... we all purchased--cowards all.
We are often poster children for the adage "old too soon, wise too late". I had company insurance on one job that I couldn't opt out of (since it was group... one size fits all) even though 100% covered on ins at my wife's work. When I joined the same company we aquired double coverage. Fixing things like that might be a good plan too.
Again, when I was in the Navy, we were required to attend divine services on Sunday--there were three options--Jewish, Catholic, Protestant. Was this legal as there was a collection plate.
I the words of a former Supt. where I worked, "As long as the believe us and don't complain it's legal." That and the institutional nature of the military almost require things like this; not a bastion of freethinking, eh?
The paper has arrived--time to see what roadblocks will be erected today by the teeth gnashers--adieu.
Gnash, gnash....
.... We dont want to have to go back in 10-20 years, so it is in our own interests to establish a stable regime, even if it is not exactly an American style republic.
+1
General Welfare is a nice clause as it is elastic and can be stretched to meet one's perception of theresponsibilities of government. I told you it was all I had, but there may be a few more peripherals.
The elastic clause only works until the people force their reps to change it (whatever the gov't stretchs to cover)... the gov't counts on use calming down before we can make their stretches of reality go away.
I am told that in the early days of our nation able bodied men were required to serve in the militiaand each was required to provide his own gun at his expense--forced to purchase!
willy, folks, as a rule, had guns already... survival on the frontier demanded that; no Brady Bunch in those days.
I am told that in some states homeowners are forced to purchase CO detectors, not by insurance companies, but by the government--forced to purchase!
And I was forced to install low flow faucets by my state gov't. by building codes. Back-door mandate but they don't fine me if mine fail "over time". 8)
I am told that under the law you can be prosecuted for failing to comply with literally scores of laws,rules and regulations which require you to be inspected, licensed, tagged, registered, et. al.--all ofwhich force you to purchase stickers, signs,etc. as well as the services of a lawyer if you contest theseburdensome and pesky impediments to commerce. Forced to purchase.
All as a tool to regulate some situation. Being forced to buy a product doesn't regulate that product.
I am told that when the draft was in effect one was forced to register and then had to undergoconscription, giving up certain civil rights, and then placed in uniform and forced to obey the ordersof people placed over him as well as buy savings bonds. Forced to purchase. Forced to obey.
This is one of the duties of a citizen... hardly in the same category IMHO.
I am told that you could construe the individual mandate as a tax provision that clearly promotes theGeneral Welfare (good to be back home) it is , therefore, clearly within the taxing power of Congress.
I eagerly await the proposal to mandate the happiness of all; we were only promised life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... the opportunity for same. I'm also looking forward to the free Bubble-Up and rainbow stew (ala old) Merle Haggard song.
I have not even touched on the commerce clause ....
...and its nexus with NCLB (ESEA)? This is the elastic clause on steroids if not just, outright, fraud.
