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.... All people's histories, all civilizations have some bad in it.
Quite right; the slave trade as mentioned in another thread:
Re: Islamic contributions to Western civilisation ? Reply #2 on: Today at 01:59:04 PM ?
They contributed to the slave trade.Also consider this from a lesson my student teacher formulated and I coopted (with her permission):
Slavery has existed in one form or another for thousands of years. After man gave up hunting and gathering and started building cities, slaves were needed to grow crops, serve in homes as cooks, cleaners, and child minders, to make crafts like pottery and leather goods. Some slaves in classical times (ancient Greece) even worked as government officials. After the decline of the Roman Empire in the 6th century, slavery became less common and was replaced by serfdom. Serfs worked for lords and nobles in exchange for protection against invading armies and famine.Slavery still existed, but in smaller numbers. Slaves could be Christian crusaders captured by Muslims, or Muslims captured by crusaders, and people captured in Viking raids. But the biggest source of slaves were purchased by Italian merchants along the northern coast of the Black Sea. These were the Slavic people, and they were so commonly used as slaves that the word slave comes from the word Slav. Very few of the slaves at this time were from Africa. At this time there was no association between skin color and slavery. Slaves came from a lot of different places and could be of any color.
The above is part of a more extensive (and very fine) lecture for an 8th grade US History class. We also must stress that the black Africans were involved in the trade and that slavery was an integral part of society in Africa and the rest of the old world. The whites found that native traders had slaves and would trade them for European goods. As time progressed and more slaves were required they were provided. If I'm a black merchant and the whites want black slaves... it being meaningless to them if it is me or my cousin from up river I'll sell them my cousin. Don't' forget to write if you find work, 'kay?We also have to consider how different old world slavery was compared to the chattel slavery of our history, but that is another lesson....I was bummed out when Clinton apologized years ago... when he offered all the computers to get them on the Internet, or at least a discount from Al Gore for high-speed dial-up ;D... one of my students (10th grade that year) asked how they could use them in villages with no electricity... hey Bill didn't care, he was apologizing for all our sins. My beef was that my family got here after the slave, never owned any, and likely got the dirty end of the stick almost as often due to our ethnicities.Yeah, the black Africans should have to own up to what their ancestors did (and some of them are likely still doing) but they, and we, shouldn't have to wear it forever.[/rant mode] 😉
No. I think Menzies had other points to try to prove and, as many writers do, included that which he thought would promote his effort rather than trying to include everything in the world. We can, if we choose, assume a bias but more likely (IMHO) he was just focused on his point of view.Every time we read a source we are likely to get something similar; I always told my students even the best historians will pick what they include and what they leave out... fact of life... no matter if we agree or not.
... according to the History of the Enlightenment class I am currently taking most classical knowledge came out of Christian archives.
Wonder if they are counting the libraries that were in the Moorish cities of Spain as Christian (after driving the Moors back to North Africa)?
Add the fact that their libraries held much of the classical knowledge that might otherwise have been lost during the Middle Ages. Not all, as some writters would have us believe, but a goodly amount* none-the-less.*Read Cahill; How the Irish Saved Civilization for more on this idea.
The Mexico-US border problems stem from the Mexican Government and its inability....
In the issue of Texas; Mexico couldn't get citizens to move into that area and secure it from the Indian population so they gave away land to Americans that would move there and become Mexican citizens (thus providing the seeds of the rebellion, but that's another story). Didn't work because the gov't in Mexico city was too far removed and considered Texas out in left field anyway. They had lost control by the time the so-called Texicans pulled away and appealed to the US.California really had the same kind of left field status but like CA today was more-or-less doing its own thing, the life of the Californios was pretty nice. As stated in my previous post Vallejo (under rated in history) saw the writing on the wall and was more than willing to see the US get CA. Better in his estimation than Russia or England, the other countries that coveted CA. In reality he wasn't captured as much as he went willingly, with the Bear Flaggers, to Sutter's Fort.
I would agree that a small tribal group may act in a civil manner among themselves and to others but they aren't on a par with Egypt or Rome. Childe gives us a format that is absent any ethnic or racialist element and while we can argue the need to include a particular item, it is the culmination of the lot that make the whole by degree if we want to compare civilizations.When I used this with my students most of them thought we could do without the sciences. Trade is necessary to establish a context and validate the society within the rest of their world; while not necessaily required for survival.
What I propose is the work of V. Gordon Childe, the man that gave us the term Urban Revolution, and while it can be argued that this is not the same as the rise of civilization it does seem (to me at least) part and parcel of the process. We all know that the change from hunter-gatherer patterns to settled agriculture was a huge shift in how society worked and the following are the steps that Childe says take us for a folk society to and urban society [my comments in brackets]. Let me know what you all think.1. Large population and large settlements (cities) [We don't have to chase game or even our own herd animals, we have the ability to settle down and we will acquire more things.]2. Full-time specialization and advanced division of labor [Since we don't all have to farm anymore because the advance methods provide surpluses, some of us can do other things.] 3. Production of an agricultural surplus to fund government and a differentiated society [Specialization will lead to a stratified society and we will need some folks to do the jobs people cannot or will not do for themselves. 4. Monumental public architecture [I prefer the term monumental public works, which I've seen used instead; this is anything from the pyramids to our interstate highway system.] 5. A ruling class [In that differentiated society somebody (or bodies) will find a way to get the power. Might be the priests class, might be the warrior class, might be the intellectuals... gonna depend on the society and their values.]6. Writing [At least some way to keep track of important info.] 7. Exact and predictive sciences (arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, calendars) [Gotta be able to do the books and banking; need this for #9 below.] 8. Sophisticated art styles [Almost goes without saying... cave painting to the Sistine Chapel to you-name-it. Expression.] 9. Long-distance trade [Validates our spatial relationship with the rest of out world.] 10. The state [We are beyond being members of a tribe or subjects of a leader we are citizens of a concept.]Just about any civilization you name will fit into this construct as far as I can tell. Your thoughts folks?
Exactly why Black studies, Womens' studies, etc. appeared in the 70's… ka-ching… payday for all the folks that will dive right in and create the programs.
Wally, you should look for a job with the UN 😀
Not likely... I wouldn't vet any better for them than I did for Obama. 😮
When you compare with the Canada-USA border, members of NAFTA just like Mexico, don't you wonder why it's so different? ::)
The connection to another anglo nation surely does enter into it but there are some issues between the US and Canada as well... beef and lumber to name a couple. But I agree with a Canadian friend that we in the west should push for a 90o rotation of the border. ;D
BTW Nafta was signed in 1994, while the mexico-US wall was upgrated after the 9/11 attacks...
There have been anti-immigration issue throughout California history... not the Californios that are seen as the problem or the folks that come in legally; what part if illegal immigrant is hard for folks to understand?.
I have a doubt !! California, Texas: where do these states initially come from ?
Indeed both were part of Mexico and I won't debate the Texas question because the Texicans were really in the wrong. California on the other hand was ripe for the picking. Sonoma (of Bear Flag Revolt fame) is father from Mexico City than it is from Chicago (roughly speaking) and Gen. Vallejo knew Mexico couldn't possibly hold it. Among the choices: England, Russia, and the US, he felt the Californios had their best shot with the US. This is why there was little resistance from him.
We might have a chance to meet while harvesting in California during our summer job? 😀 (talking about incentive from the US to "wetbacks")
Not likely, old retired folks like me will likely be getting pre-death planning.
These are all pieces of the puzzle. I'm going to go back to some materials that I used to use in class to try to find what I need to help tie this up. may take some time but I'll see what I can come up with. :-
About the Mexico-USA border, it's more an economic wall than an political one (twin-cities, maquiladoras) despite the NAFTA treaty...
Conditions that far predate NAFTA.
....On the other hand, such walls wouldn't denote a kind of weakness from their builders ?
An interesting point... perhaps to show they are doing something (no matter how lame) about the problem (real or imagined).
